But It's Just Fanfiction!

[Misplaced]

I'm not sure if this is the correct forum for this post (the Writer's Resource didn't seem to fit), so if anyone more knowledgeable than me would like to move it, please feel free!

Recently, in my other fandom, one of my groups has been having a discussion on writing fanfiction, and I thought it would be great to hear your thoughts on the matter.

We have a new member of the group griping that people are being too hard on her about grammar mistakes, formatting, etc. with her stories. She went so far as to suggest that as long as the plot was compelling, then the writing shouldn't need to be perfect--people would read anyway. Another member disavowed her of this illusion that people keep reading despite the problems with the writing. I felt the need to add my voice to the debate:

While I am much more forgiving of a fanfic author than I am a professional one, I am one of those that will skip a story for basic spelling and multiple grammar errors. I will also skip a story that doesn’t have proper paragraph breaks. One story I came across recently had a fantastic premise, decent enough writing, but these huge page-long paragraphs that hurt my eyeballs to read. I dropped it.

My time is limited for reading fanfic, and I don’t want to constantly be mentally correcting a story as I’m reading it. Little errors I can live with. Writing that isn’t completely professional I can live with as long as the story is good and the characters are spot-on. More than that, I move on to the next fanfic.

I will admit there have been the rare times that I’ve put up a story where I’ve known that I could have pushed a little harder, polished a little more, and went with the “it’s a fanfic, for crying out loud!” excuse. (It usually comes when I’ve been hacking it to death, and I just can’t look at it anymore.) But generally, I try to give my best. It may be fanfic, but it’s a part of me that I’m sharing with the world. Just like I wouldn’t show up at a social function in sweats and a ratty t-shirt, I don’t want to come across in my writing as if I just fell out of bed and really couldn’t give a damn whether or not my story was worth telling.

I have a feeling that most here are like-minded, since one of the things we love about TDE is the quality of writing expected. I think that, alone, says how false the idea of "It's just fanfiction, I don't need to work at it" is. I'd still love to hear your thoughts, though!

[Aquarius]

Great topic, Misplaced.

I came along to the fanfic scene pre-internet, when fanzines were the only real way to share fanfic and fan art. Zines have an editor. They are non-profit, but you still have to pay for them to cover the cost of production. Because money is exchanged, an editor worth her salt will make sure that the content is top notch. This includes spelling, grammar, mechanics, characterization, a plot that makes sense, formatting, etc. Sure there were some bad zines out there, but those go away because the zine and the editor get a bad reputation. The good ones endure.

What I'm saying is, I'm old school. Whether you post it for free on the internet or publish it in a zine, you are asking for someone else's time to read it. You owe it to them to do your best. Otherwise, you don't deserve their time. Period.

Do typos slip through under the best of circumstances? Sure. I've found them in professionally published work, too. But you can tell the difference between a typo and a don't know/don't care. I'm forgiving of typos and occasional mistakes. When they're obviously mistakes. But carelessness or laziness? I can't forgive that.

Some people think we're pretty hardassed with our standards here. And we are. We try to be nice about it, but the fact remains: when you put it out there for public consumption, you should put the reader before yourself. Period.

COMMUNICATION is the basic point of writing. The rules of spelling, grammar, formatting, etc. exist in order to ensure that all readers of the same language can understand what's being read. If your writing is a hot mess, you need to be told, because you are failing to communicate. I won't even be able to evaluate your plot or your characterization if I can't figure out what the hell you're talking about, or if it's so riddled with mistakes I'm spending more time wondering if you're old enough to be using a computer unattended than I am thinking about the story. Sorry, I know that sounds harsh, but that's how it is.

It's also why you should use a beta reader. And not someone who's your friend who will tell you how peachy keen you are, but someone who respects you enough to tell you the truth. None of us write perfectly right out of the gate. Pros show their work to someone else before turning it in. If it's worth doing, it's worth doing well. Learn from the corrections that beta readers and editors make, and practice what you learned, and then it won't be an issue next time.

I'm sorry, I know I sound harsh, but the fact of the matter is, if you don't care enough to do it right, I don't care enough to read it. I'm busy, I don't like sloppy authors with a sense of entitlement wasting my time. Unfortunately, that's one thing the internet has done--giving people a sense of entitlement that, back in the days of zines, existed in such a smaller amount because there were no self-serve archives with providing instant gratification.

Writing for public consumption is a selfish pursuit. When you publish something for everyone to read, you're saying, "Look at me, look at what I did." No matter how much one wants to argue with me about that (and many have), it's true. So, when you say, "Look at me," don't you want to make sure it's WORTH looking at?

Sorry. I know the writers here are great, all have expressed a desire to continually improve, and THAT is something I can respect. I *don't* respect "It's just fanfic." If that's someone's attitude, they can do us a favor and not submit here.

*shakes head* It's a sad thing when I feel compelled to apologize for having standards.

[Kathy Rose]

Don't apologize, Aquarius, for having standards. As the old saying goes, "If something is worth doing, it's worth doing well."

I abhore sloppy fanfic. As in the comments that Misplaced posted, I'll quit reading because it's just too much work, and my time is valuable. If I have time to read, I want to enjoy what I'm reading.

And frankly, when I've read a sloppy fanfic full of typos or horrendous grammatical errors, I begin to wonder if the person who wrote it really cares that much about it, either, despite any protests on their part that plot or whatever should be good enough. No matter how talented a writer you are, writing takes effort to make it a good story.

My personal standard is to be able to read through a story and forget that I'm reading, getting so caught up in what the writer has created that I feel like I'm there. Sadly, sloppy fanfic can't do that.

[Misplaced]

I really couldn't have said it better myself, Aquarius.

And this:

I'm busy, I don't like sloppy authors with a sense of entitlement wasting my time.

Exactly!

That was why that gal's comment irked me. I thought, "Really? You really think I'm going to use my precious time reading your story when you don't even care enough about it to write it well? You think just because it's fanfiction and has my favorite pairing that I'm going to fall over myself to read past the lazy mistakes, lazy formatting?"

I love this:

Writing for public consumption is a selfish pursuit. When you publish something for everyone to read, you're saying, "Look at me, look at what I did." No matter how much one wants to argue with me about that (and many have), it's true. So, when you say, "Look at me," don't you want to make sure it's WORTH looking at?

#truefax

Kathy Rose, I have to "Amen!" this:

No matter how talented a writer you are, writing takes effort to make it a good story.

There are some stories that writers whip out (and I know they're whipping it out because of their notes: "I just came up with this today!") that I feel are okay, but would have been great if the writer had taken just a little more time to polish it up. Yes, I wrote "New Dreams" in a day, but I didn't write it in 30 minutes. Some aspects of writing come much easier to me now, where it would take me days of blood, sweat and tears before--but that doesn't mean that my first draft is polished, or the second, or third. It doesn't mean that I no longer have to take time to do a read-through and ask myself if I can't do it better. It doesn't mean that I don't need a second pair of unbiased eyes to look it over for me. In fact, I would say that the better writer I become, the more concerned I am with the quality of my work.

ETA: I would also say because I know how much time and effort I put into my work, I find myself expecting that another writer has put in as much into crafting their tales.

If you stop thinking you have room for improvement, then you need to stop writing.

[Aquarius]

I agree with you about the expectation of reciprocity in terms of time spent, Misplaced. Taking the time to polish shows self-respect, and respect for the reader.

I just don't understand the mentality that the readers are supposed to lower their standards to match what the author is willing to produce. I don't know if it's the same mentality that leads to scoring being taken out of little league games and No Child Left Behind, or what, but it sounds like your member is in it just for the ego stroke and not for the love of the show or the craft of writing.

I once dropped someone I was beta reading for because when I suggested ways to improve his characterizations (and let me tell you they were bad), he got very dismissive, told me that he had no interest in writing the characters in the way they were represented on the show. He LIKED his fic all repetitive and redundant, where nothing really happens because the characters are right where he wants them, with no dramatic need or obstacles to fulfilling it, and characters who resemble the ones on the show in name only. So I said goodbye, politely saying I no longer had time because of school. I didn't bother telling him the truth; he'd already so much as told me he didn't care. He's only interested in reaching those who share his fantasy wish fulfillment, and shaming those who don't share his vision. I haven't read one word of his work since.

One of my pet peeves, while we're on the subject: an author who can't even be bothered to spell the characters' names right. Any time I see "Tripp" or "Tpol" I want to reach through the screen and punch the author in the nose. That someone would be self-righteous and indignant over being called on something like that is just laughable. But I've seen it happen.

I'll tell you something else, too: when I get together with my friends at Media West Con, we have Bad!Fic night. We choose a poorly-written little gem, riddled with mistakes, bad characterization, and generally we pick something smutty because there's something oh-so-specially wrong when you apply these things to a sex scene.We have a drinking game built around it. Is it mean? Well, yeah, kinda...but you know, when you put it out there for public consumption, you open yourself to criticism. There is no law that says THOU SHALT NOT CRITICIZE, or one that says THOU SHALT NOT CRITICIZE JUST BECAUSE THE AUTHOR IS LAZY AND SELF-ENTITLED AND DOESN'T FEEL LIKE DOING A GOOD JOB. Sorry. So, when people don't read, or when they leave less than stellar commentary, then you got what you put into it. Even if you tried really hard and thought you did your best, you still missed some things--the difference is, if you care, you'll go back and fix it, or you'll at least do better next time now that you know.

[Kathy Rose]

I once dropped someone I was beta reading for because when I suggested ways to improve his characterizations (and let me tell you they were bad), he got very dismissive, told me that he had no interest in writing the characters in the way they were represented on the show. He LIKED his fic all repetitive and redundant, where nothing really happens because the characters are right where he wants them, with no dramatic need or obstacles to fulfilling it, and characters who resemble the ones on the show in name only. So I said goodbye, politely saying I no longer had time because of school. I didn't bother telling him the truth; he'd already so much as told me he didn't care. He's only interested in reaching those who share his fantasy wish fulfillment, and shaming those who don't share his vision. I haven't read one word of his work since.

One of my pet peeves, while we're on the subject: an author who can't even be bothered to spell the characters' names right. Any time I see "Tripp" or "Tpol" I want to reach through the screen and punch the author in the nose. That someone would be self-righteous and indignant over being called on something like that is just laughable. But I've seen it happen.

Amen to both these points! A few years back, I got so burned out on betaing other writers' stories because they were unwilling to take suggestions or make corrections. I always try to couch my corrections and criticisms in a constructive and respectful manner. In some instances, I even propose the option of letting a phrase, a particular wording, or even paragraph structure stay as originally written if the author likes it that way, but offer reasons why it might be better changed. (Having spent more than 15 years in a writing-intensive profession -- newspapers -- as both a writer and an editor, I feel most of my beta work was sound, so surely lack of knowing what I was talking about wasn't the reason the writers didn't heed my suggestions and/or corrections, eh?) Some didn't even bother to change spelling errors I caught before they posted! If they want a proofreader, they can use their spellcheck, as far as I'm concerned. But betaing -- don't waste my time unless you're going to enter into the concept willingly and with an aim toward improving your writing.

*steps off soapbox*

Yeah, it really galls me when people can't even get the names right. I have a similar pet peeve in that a lot of authors have Trip call Malcolm "Mal." Did he ever call him that in the series? As far as I know, Trip always called him by his full first name. It just grates on me. Unless maybe if Trip has had a little to drink and is a bit tipsy. Same thing with "Hosh." Her name is Hoshi, darn it. Or the ones who, without any reason, have Hoshi call Trip by his given name, Charles.

[mareel]

have a similar pet peeve in that a lot of authors have Trip call Malcolm "Mal." Did he ever call him that in the series? As far as I know, Trip always called him by his full first name.

I have to disagree that this is a problem, not just the specific example, but with nicknames and pet names in general. If the author is writing a relationship in which the people involved are likely to know each other well, including romantic and non-canon relationships (including all slash relationships), I don't think it at all reasonable to expect them to speak to each other and address one another exactly as they do in a general canon context (where they were generally shown interacting professionally rather than personally).

In my mind, whether Malcolm permits someone to call him 'Mal' is entirely dependent on the relationship and the context. Just as an example, in my personal canon A/R writing, they might call one another Jon and Mal casually, but often in truely intimate moments, they choose to use full names (or other endearments). It's just a part of how I see their relationship in my writing. I don't expect everyone to adhere to it, but it works for my pair.

i would agree with you that it could be jarring in a gen fic or strictly canon-based context. And yes, misspelling names is just unacceptable anytime.

[Aquarius]

I think the question, though, is whether it works for readers, and how well the author has established context. One author's mental canon can read like a personality transplant to someone else if it departs too far from what they saw on the show, whether it's in a het, slash, or gen context.

It's like the difference between "real speech" and "natural speech." Real speech is what comes out of our mouths every day. And I guarantee you that if we wrote dialogue the way people actually talk, with all the "um" and "uh" and incidental minutiae ("How are you?" "I'm fine. How are you?" "Fine"--kill me now if I see that in a fic). "Natural speech" fools the reader into thinking she's reading real speech. The difference is, it has a better cadence and flow, and it doesn't contain the mundane stuff that nobody cares about.

Likewise with developing relationships, couples in real life develop all kinds of nick names and schmoop. What they don't realize is that most of their friends want to hurl if they witness it. Likewise, readers who do not belong to the fantasy wish fulfillment camp often get a little uncomfortable reading it, too. Plus, an author can risk alienating a reader if she departs too far from what's seen on the show. (Notice how on the show when they flash forward and we see older versions of the characters, we don't see them acting too differently from how they were, just older, maybe angrier/crazier if they've been through hell.)

This happens a lot in TnT. It's well established that Trip likes to be called...well, TRIP. He even makes T'Pol call him that on the show. So why the hell would she start calling him Charles? The author can say what they want about the direction they think the relationship has taken over X amount of time, but it still doesn't fit with the characters or what we see on the show.

Not saying it's impossible or would never happen, but it's an area where an author should tread lightly and not beat the reader over the head with it.

[Honeybee]

Seriously? No one ever calls Malcolm, Mal? *face palm* I don't think I've done that very often, but I know I've done it. Must. Rethink. I think that's one of those things where fanon dribbles into one's consciousness.

[crystalswolf]

I'm going to play devil's advocate.

Could it be that those that have posted very strong views feel this way because writing is a passion/profession? Someone that approaches writing with the perspective of nothing more than a hobby may not easily see the need for such high standards. Perspective has a lot to do with it, I think.

A few art-forms come to mind where perspective can cause a very wide gap in how one approaches the art. An aspiring/professional poet may not appreciate the scribblings of someone that felt moved to write a poem or two. A professional chef may not view too kindly those with entire shows dedicated to a cavalier approach they have for the art of cooking. A sculptor with years of studying their art may not view someone's barely recognizable, chiseled figure displayed in a neighborhood. A person that spent most of their lives learning to draw may not look too favorably on someone's cartoon that they doodled to pass the time.

Each (aspiring) professional could have a laundry list of corrections they believe their less informed counterpart should learn before displaying their art, but does that mean a person should not share it until they complete these corrections?

And I don't think there is anything wrong with high standards. Heck, it's one of the reasons why I love the archive here. But I do have to question if those high standards should be expected everywhere.

When I romp through ff.net, I don't expect anything near professional quality because that's the kind of archive that it is. I'm looking for those diamonds in the rough and I've found quite a few. I know many of them have not been seen by a beta, and the author may have had their stubborn or personal reasons for that, but I would rather see their work as is than not at all.

As for beta issues, I'm not going to get into that. Not even as devil's advocate.

And now...