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Hypothetically speaking 2: Trip and "I love you."

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Hypothetically speaking 2: Trip and "I love you."

Postby Aquarius » Sun Apr 10, 2011 9:14 am

The last hypothetical question had to do with a single decision changing the outcome of "Home." While Trip had a shot at changing things in this one, Too--T'Les so much as told him to tell T'Pol how he feels and put a stop to it--I'm pretty sure we all know he wouldn't, because he wouldn't want to stop T'Pol from doing what's important to her.

But he's got another shot, in "The Anear." Oh, sure, he tries, in his own roundabout way, shrouded as concern for her safety...but it's clearly tearing him up. Does he *really* have that much to lose at that point? Could it really get much worse if he told her he didn't want her to use the telepresence machine because he loves her and doesn't want anything to happen to her? What kind of consequences might that have had on their relationship? Would things have gotten worse, or might Trip have not gone off to Columbia after all?

Discuss.
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Re: Hypothetically speaking 2: Trip and "I love you."

Postby Honeybee » Sun Apr 10, 2011 9:28 am

This one is very frustrating to think about. I have heard some fans really blame T'Pol for not seeing how much he cares here, but she's a Vulcan and certainly not as capable of reading signals as a human. Case in point, I think she's far more surprised when Sim expresses his and Trip's feelings for her than a human woman would have been at that point. Yet, by The Anear, she should have a little bit of a clue. Yet, I think she's behaving very Vulcan.

And I think Trip is trying to respect her Vulcanness. Remember when he asks her what she was thinking about during what could have been her last moments in Zero Hour, and she was thinking about the task at hand? He wanted her, no doubt, to be thinking about him. But she was trying to save them all, which was an act of responsibility and, in her Vulcan way, love. Can you think of a more logical way to express your affection for someone than focusing on saving their life? He must see that kind of thinking as a part of her, and that dovetails with his own desire not to be rejected again and reticence to express his feelings.

So, I can understand why they are both behaving the way they are in that moment. BUT, I absolutely think had he said that he loves her and wants them to be mates, permanently, they might have come together.

I can see him saying. "I love you. You need a mate. We know that in that other timeline, we were happy. We can succeed at this." Because, even though I totally respect Trip's respect for what she wants, at this point he should step up and say what he wants. I think she probably would have responded and responded well. They are already bonded. A conversation like that might have allowed them to realize it.
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Re: Hypothetically speaking 2: Trip and "I love you."

Postby Aquarius » Sun Apr 10, 2011 9:37 am

So do you think that if they'd had that conversation in "The Aenar,' they would've reached a compromise? Like a "we'll talk more about this later" kind of thing, but since Trip wouldn't be taking it as a total shut-down, he can allow himself to think about her Vulcan-ness and let her do what she needs to do, realizing that testing the telepresence machine is also something she has to do because she cares about him?
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Re: Hypothetically speaking 2: Trip and "I love you."

Postby Honeybee » Sun Apr 10, 2011 9:45 am

Yes, I think so. I think if he had said "Don't do this. I love you and need you." She would have responded with something along the lines of "I'm doing this because of my affection for you, don't you see that?"

But, I do think that whether it was at that moment or later, Trip would have had to do more than just express feelings. Because T'Pol is probably kind of terrified of the mutability of human feelings. I think Trip would need to express more than love, but a desire to be her mate and all that that entails, which to her would mean far more than just the words.
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Re: Hypothetically speaking 2: Trip and "I love you."

Postby crystalswolf » Sun Apr 10, 2011 11:39 am

I always assumed at the point of "The Aenar" T'Pol was in a heavy state of denial about the bond between her and Trip. Look how long she refused to believe in time travel until she was physically plunged into another time and place, even when there was evidence beforehand.

If Trip had taken the other road and spoke up, I think she would have said something very Vulcan and bruise his ego, then try to patch things up after meditating on it. The funny thing is under these circumstances, he would probably still leave for the Columbia with his bruised, Human ego.

I don't think she would do something like that solely because it's a Vulcan thing, but that she would be startled and a bit fearful (Panar & Trillium) having to, at first, confront not only his feelings for her openly, but hers as well.

Just my quick take on it.
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Re: Hypothetically speaking 2: Trip and "I love you."

Postby JiNX-01 » Sun Apr 10, 2011 1:37 pm

This is the One Big Gripe I have about this aspect of Trip's characterization (Thanks again, Bermaga). He never takes the initiative with women.

The closest he comes is in Oasis when he kisses Liana goodbye, and that was a pretty chaste kiss.

Image


Precious Cargo: Princess Fishtick grabs him and kisses him.
Similitude: T'Pol kisses Sim (tho' I will say this: Sim at least admits his (and Trip's) feeling for her.
Harbinger: Cole kisses Trip.
Harbinger: T'Pol kisses Trip.
Bound: T'Pol kisses Trip.
Some Lothario. :roll:

I think he should have told T'Pol how he felt ' Home." Her own mother encouraged him. And after I saw the Vulcan arc, I wondered if T'Les lost her job because she was suspected of being a Syrranite and that it had nothing to do with T'Pol's activities aboard Enterprise.
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Re: Hypothetically speaking 2: Trip and "I love you."

Postby Pitseleh » Sat Apr 16, 2011 12:17 am

If there was a moment I actually wanted Trip to say something, it was at the Fire Plains. But he didn't: he just walked out of the frame and T'Pol sighed. By the time T'Les spoke to him and urged him to do something, his mind was made up. He wouldn't get in T'Pol's way, even if it meant self-sacrifice.

A good question would be exactly how important the whole "I love you" thing is from a Vulcan PoV. In a way, these might have a lot to do with TnTs misunderstandings. I keep thinking that for Vulcans, it is not about saying it, it is about showing it. Sure, T'Pol has a lot of issues uttering anything regarding her relationship with Trip, but then again, she kissed Sim, she took the initiative in Harbinger, she kissed his cheek in Home, she kissed him in Bound, and she took his hand in Terra Prime. In Vulcan, those things are huge.
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Re: Hypothetically speaking 2: Trip and "I love you."

Postby Honeybee » Sat Apr 16, 2011 8:27 am

I agree. I've always framed it as part of the issue between them is that she didn't know she was supposed to say anything. Just by inviting him home or earlier by telling him her age, she was expressing her feelings. In "Home", I think she makes it incredibly clear that she loves Trip. But, she would have a seriously difficult time actually declaring them out loud in her culture. She's probably not looking for some grand expression of emotion, but similar gestures from him.

A grand declaration of love would have probably made her as uncomfortable as it would pleased or happy, but I think she would understand that he's expressing himself like a human.

In fact, I've had an enormous amount of fun exploring this in my stories. It's NC-17, but Chapter 2 of Family Secrets completely elucidates this whole dynamic. I got such good feedback from that story, I wrote a prequel and dealt with the same issue in Chapter 4 of that.

I think if we had ever seen them as a proper couple on screen, this would have to have been dealt with.
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Re: Hypothetically speaking 2: Trip and "I love you."

Postby Trip-ZG » Mon Apr 18, 2011 10:17 am

Honeybee wrote:I think if we had ever seen them as a proper couple on screen, this would have to have been dealt with.


I agree. In Home we saw that her mother, and even Koss see that she has certain affection toward Trip.
˝We've crossed the Rubicon, let the bridge be burned behind me, come what may˝
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Re: Hypothetically speaking 2: Trip and "I love you."

Postby panyasan » Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:13 pm

Can I add something? After watching the show it was perfectly clear for me that T'Pol cared deeply for Trip. With Trip I wasn't so sure. I knew he cared about her, but not as much as I felt was so obvious with T'Pol.

When I met other ENT fans online I was very much surprised that most fans felt differently. They were sure Trip loved T'Pol, but questioned T'Pols love.

I had a very interesting discussion with one of my beta's about this. Like me she grew up in Europe and we realized we were both much more used to interpretated body language or "things said between the lines" then only actual words. For example: when my mother calls and says "We missed you during your brother in law-birthday" she means "Call your brother in law. You weren't there to visit him. You should, he is family".

I and my beta agreed that given T'Pols language it was perfectly clear T'Pol cared about Trip. We were like "look at her eyes", 'look at the way she stands and moves her body", "look at her expression on her face." For me T'Pol communicates clearly through body language plus actions (not so much what she says).

I came to the conclusion that given Trip cultural background I expected him to step up and say the words "I love you" or "Don't marry, Koss, marry me." Given T'Pols cultural background I placed her in the group of people that communicated through body language and actions, not so much words.
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