the delphic expanse

Conflict, trajectory. . .couldn't they have?

Discussion, story pimpage, and anything else relating to the TnT pairing.

Postby Aquarius » Sun Oct 10, 2010 4:31 am


Honeybee wrote:What's really interesting about Home is many TnT shippers really hate that she married Koss and called it out for artificial conflict, but so many people also love that kiss in Home.



Well, maybe I'm overgeneralizing a bit here, but consider the sources of that objection. Often it comes from people who seem to see T'Pol as nothing more than a human with pointed ears and a crappy haircut, and their fanfic preferences seem to indicate that they don't like anything terribly complex. I know there are probably exceptions but the loudest and most notable instances of that complaint I can think of are from folks who write and rave about fanfic that doesn't ever really "go" anywhere, it shows us nothing new about the characters, it's repetitive both of itself and its show, and there's nothing more complex going on than snappy dialogue that's out of character and possibly a sex scene. They confuse "gratuitous angst" with "conflict necessary to moving a plot and character development." What they are saying is they don't like conflict. They like stories and fantasies where the characters are already right where they want them to be and don't want them to move from there; they do not care about the journey, they seem to know what Trip and T'Pol have is worth fighting for, they just don't want to see them doing the fighting for it.

Was I particularly happy that she married Koss? No. It did sort of come out of nowhere in terms of seeming like they felt the need to back away from a relationship between TnT for some unknown reason. But I feel that, had there been a Season Five, after T'Pol's marriage and divorce, after Trip leaving Enterprise and coming back, after Baby Elizabeth...I think that the writers could've easily seen that Trip and T'Pol were in a position to realize just how much they need each other, as illustrated by the handholding at the end of "Terra Prime."

To me, that handholding would've lost significance if I'd never seen where they came from (she wouldn't even shake his hand) or the various speedbumps in the road to how they got there. Take away the fight for what they have, and all you've got is "that's nice, they like each other, they're holding hands."
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Postby THE Rigil Kent » Sun Oct 10, 2010 4:40 am

Well, not to beat a dead horse, but I'm certainly one of those people who really liked the tone and acting of "Home" but don't much care for the marriage to Koss because it felt exactly like the delaying tactic that it was in regards to the TnT relationship, especially when looked at all of the other delaying tactics they threw into season 4 to desperately avoid writing the two characters in a relationship. Hence, that's why I wasn't that impressed with the whole season 4 TnT subplot - much to my great surprise, I actually preferred season 3 in that regard, even with the kinda dumb neuropressure and the frustratingly silly "morning after" in Harbinger. With plot twists like this marriage, I really need a reason for it and they never bothered actually explaining Koss' motivations apart from him showing up simply to delay the TnT relationship. As someone who doesn't much like 2D characters who have no importance other than to affect a Main Character, that irked me to no end.

As to what would have happened in season 5, well, I'll be the first to admit that I have very little confidence in any television production these days and fully expect that they would have piled on some more angst and found another way to effectively "punt" for as long as possible to avoid writing an actual romantic relationship.

And I'm certainly not somebody who just perceives Polly as a pointed ear human, not with all the little non-human things I like to apply to her...
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Postby Aquarius » Sun Oct 10, 2010 4:50 am

Rigil, you make fair points. And I wasn't really talking about you in particular; as I said, I was speaking about the most notable objections that came to my mind--and they never came from people who gave their reasons they way you did.

And I agree with you that it seemed to exist because TPTB wanted to back away from the relationship yet again. But I also don't see it as being as gratuitous and melodramatic as some do.

Plus I'm sort of of the mind, it's there, we can't change it, too late, so work with it. :dunno Some people still get so bent out of shape about it (not saying you, Rigil 8) ) so, at some other places, for me it's become one of those "forum grenades" that, when I see it, I immediately grow weary because of the people I mentioned above. That isn't what's happening here, because this isn't that kind of place.
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Postby THE Rigil Kent » Sun Oct 10, 2010 4:56 am

Sort of like T'Pol being XO when she had no legal right, eh? :lol:

As to it being gratuitous, I guess for me, it wouldn't have been if they hadn't followed it up with the dissolution of the marriage by Koss without explaining his motivations, followed immediately by T'Pol "getting religion" and pushing Trip away, and then Trip getting angry and doing his one episode transfer away from ENT ... and so on. Being a bit older and wiser to the tricks TV shows use, I just roll my eyes now (especially when I see the exact same kinds of delaying tactics in other television shows for the same reasons), but it really did irk the heck out of me back in the day.

I blame Connor and Jolene for making me actively want their characters to hook up for a change. :D
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Postby Aquarius » Sun Oct 10, 2010 4:58 am


THE Rigil Kent wrote:Sort of like T'Pol being XO when she had no legal right, eh? :lol:



Yes. That!
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Postby Misplaced » Sun Oct 10, 2010 8:33 am


THE Rigil Kent wrote:I blame Connor and Jolene for making me actively want their characters to hook up for a change. :D



Seriously. I'm typically ambivalent about potential couples on a show because I'm used to the overdone "drag it out as looooooooong as possible angst" that all shows seem to just luuurve.

But dangit, I couldn't help myself with Trip and T'Pol.

However, after the gut-kicking fest that was season 4, regarding their relationship (though seriously better after "Bound")... I absolutely refuse to ever, EVER ship again.
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Postby THE Rigil Kent » Sun Oct 10, 2010 8:50 am

Yeah ... I went and got myself burned in that regard with Tony & Ziva on NCIS. Really got into them, then got disgusted with what the show (and that ship) turned into under the current showrunner which has made me once again refuse to ship for anyone ever again.
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Postby Pitseleh » Sun Oct 10, 2010 1:51 pm


THE Rigil Kent wrote:Yeah ... I went and got myself burned in that regard with Tony & Ziva on NCIS. Really got into them, then got disgusted with what the show (and that ship) turned into under the current showrunner which has made me once again refuse to ship for anyone ever again.



Geez, the rant fest I could go on regarding TIVA...

TV shows have become painfully predictable in that regard, and ENT was not the exception. I guess we could forever sit and wonder if S5 would have been a good TnT season or if the writers would have thrown more roadblocks our way. Sometimes I think it a good thing that it actually ended with Terra Prime and we get to make our own story from then on.
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Postby Aquarius » Sun Oct 10, 2010 2:37 pm

I think there was some general fear of "jumping the shark," as many successful shows in the past declined once the Unresolved Romantic Tension got, well, resolved. For a while they called it "The Moonlighting Curse," because many viewers blame the show's decline on the fact that the lead characters finally got together, ending the will-they-won't-they tension.

Unfortunately, I think by the time Enterprise came along, things on the TV landscape hadn't matured very much beyond that. They probably just didn't think that problems inherent in a relationship between a Vulcan woman and a human man, like culture clash and the normal boy/girl misunderstandings, would be interesting enough to hold an audience.

I contend that the opposite would've been true, and it would've also served to feed an audience hungry for even more insight into Vulcan culture.
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Postby HopefulRomantic » Sun Oct 10, 2010 8:07 pm

^^ I agree that there was plenty of conflict to mine regarding a Trip/T'Pol Together storyline. (Anyone remember "Dr. Quinn, Medicine Woman"? Michaela and Sully told each other "I love you," then spent at least a season struggling with the problems of trying to make their relationship work, before finally getting married. And there was still conflict after that.)

But it takes work to do a convincing and credible storyline about established-relationship conflict. Much easier (albeit contrived and unsatisfying) to just punt the issue and bring in Koss. Or the Kir'Shara. Or the transfer. :roll: The puntage was all the more disappointing and frustrating for me as a viewer because Season 3 seemed to be laying clear groundwork for a relationship storyline in Season 4.

Pluswhich, Trek writers do not have a stellar track record when it comes to romantic relationships. I was a J/C shipper, and gawd, they screwed up that one. Yow. Before that, I was a Picard/Crusher shipper... Image
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