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How do A/T'P fans view T'Pol's relationship with Trip?

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How do A/T'P fans view T'Pol's relationship with Trip?

Postby Brandyjane » Fri May 25, 2012 1:01 pm

I started out as an Archer/T'Pol shipper, but I gradually moved over to TnT. I still get the attraction a lot of fans have to Archer/T'Pol, though. I'm curious. How do you reconcile the TnT stuff in seasons three and four with your preference for A/T'P. Please note: I am not trying to start any sort of "war;" I'm genuinely curious. I'll start out with a few ways that I could see myself handling it:

1. T'Pol genuinely did love Trip, but after he died (assuming you accept TATV), her deep friendship with Jon turned romantic as they continued to work together and comfort each other over the loss of Trip.

2. T'Pol loved both men for different reasons. When Jon withdrew from everyone in season three, she and Trip turned to each other for comfort, but she still did love Jon. In the long run, she's more compatible with Jon, so she probably would have ended up with him if the series continued a few more seasons.

3. T'Pol wasn't in love with Trip, though he probably loved her. There was an attraction between the two, but that doesn't equal love. She wouldn't have acted on any of it if not for the trellium addiction, and the bond was completely accidental. It's a sad situation since Trip was in love with her, but she was bonded to him while actually in love with Jon.

Thoughts?
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Re: How do A/T'P fans view T'Pol's relationship with Trip?

Postby kikopolis » Thu Jul 19, 2012 7:37 pm

I see no one else has touched base on this thread...

I am the sort of person who seems to fall into the 'Anti-canon' zone....I don't even mean to. But I saw Archer/T'pol and I liked what I saw. T'pol's trust in Archer really warmed me up to the pairing, specifically in 'The seventh'.

I admit I was disappointed to see her paired with Trip, and loved loved loved the 'Twilight' AU

Brandyjane wrote:
2. T'Pol loved both men for different reasons. When Jon withdrew from everyone in season three, she and Trip turned to each other for comfort, but she still did love Jon. In the long run, she's more compatible with Jon, so she probably would have ended up with him if the series continued a few more seasons.

Thoughts?


To me this is what I felt would be most likely (by likely I mean what I WANTED to happen haha )

And don't get me wrong, I am not an Anti T/Tu. I am not anti ANY ship, it's just not in my nature.
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Re: How do A/T'P fans view T'Pol's relationship with Trip?

Postby Aquarius » Fri Jul 20, 2012 10:05 am

I don't think many of the A/T'Pers have been around here in a while, so I think that's why this thread went unanswered until now. Everybody knows by now that we wouldn't have permitted the vitriolic shitstorm that would have resulted from a question like this at other places even now, but I can also see how some A/T'Pers may worry about answering. Since it was asked in the spirit of "tell me more," we allowed it, but I won't lie, I was a little nervous about it at first. I don't want any A/T'P fans to feel like they have to defend their POV or anything like that.

As a writer, I would likewise be interested to see how A/T'P fans handle Trip in their writings and other imaginings. Personally, as a TnTer, I was always okay with T'Pol having feelings for Archer, because very few people seem to ever have just one relationship or just one love in their life. It seemed more "normal" to me if she had feelings for both.

Most of the A/T'Pers I've spoken to seem to generally feel that if anything were to happen between them, it would have taken place after the mission, with feelings being sublimated while they still served together. As for how Trip fits in, the responses have always ranged so I think it's a personal view vs. a 'ship-wide thing -- they'd rather be talking about A/T'P so Trip doesn't enter the picture, if you will.

Of course, this is all anecdotal and second-hand...and honestly, I'm not sure how much of an answer we'll get. Still, I think it would be cool if someone from the 'ship wants to share their ideas, or recommend some fics where they thought it was handled particularly well.
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Re: How do A/T'P fans view T'Pol's relationship with Trip?

Postby kikopolis » Fri Jul 20, 2012 12:59 pm

Considering I only got into ENT at all within the last year, I was ignorant to the fact that people get VERY snippy about their ships...
I have seen it mentioned several times that there is some kind of rift between A/T shippers and T/Tu ones....

I genuinely had no idea people got so defensive of things like this.
Even though I am a slash reader mostly, and enjoy Archer/T'pol and Reed/Sato, I also very much appreciate when fics respect canon.

I don't ship this pairing, I just liked it for canon.
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Re: How do A/T'P fans view T'Pol's relationship with Trip?

Postby gammara » Wed Oct 24, 2012 2:32 am

I don't see it as a war, and I find the question interesting. I'll also say I really am not a shipper. I really, in general, don't care about ships. I don't need to see romance and I really hate contrived romances. Archer/T'Pol to me seemed above the silliness of many on television where it's about two hot bods getting it on. Archer/T'Pol seemed to have depth and dimension.

And just to be clear, like someone before mentioned, I really think Archer would've explored something after the mission was over. And I don't think Archer would get in the way if he knew T'Pol and Trip had something going. (I'm not convinced he knew, by the way. I got out of the Trip heading to the Columbia that Archer was a little bewildered at why.)

I'll answer your question as thoroughly as possible, and I hope you don't get upset or see these as digs.
Equality is important to love.
I really think T'Pol and Archer are equals, both mentally and emotionally. They're close to the same age, too.

T'Pol trusts Archer a lot
When T'Pol received a token from her mother with a map, she made a beeline to Archer's office to talk with him about it. She confides in him over her mentor's fall from grace and needed protection, she confides in him after her mental rape, and she confides in him about the seven she had to hunt down on Vulcan. Archer is her confidante.

T'Pol doesn't just mourn Archer once and smell his clothes, she mourns him many times over when he's hurt or in trouble
Every time Archer manages to get himself in a jam, T'Pol mourns him. And she seems to pick Archer over Trip.
* Emotionally asking him not to go in Azati Prime, and then petting his smelly quadraped and barking at Trip to get the hell out of the Ready Room (Vulcanly of course)
* Staying with Archer in Twilight instead of staying aboard Enterprise
* Deciding to stay and go into the Expanse (she said that to Soval it was to help Archer)
* Putting her relationship with her mother at risk (the same one she decided to marry Koss for) in the Vulcan arc

Phlox told us T'Pol did drugs to get into a relationship with Trip
I don't want to believe T'Pol is the sort of being who decides to delve into drugs just to create a relationship. And I don't think Trip would let her. Phlox wouldn't just shake his head when T'Pol said she took drugs to improve her relations with the crew (where Phlox points out Trip specifically). That seems horribly out of character for all of them.

Archer puts himself out for T'Pol more than just a captain would
Archer has put his reputation on the line for her to keep her aboard Enterprise like when she has Pa'Naar syndrome or saved T'Pol causing his permanent memory loss (like Twilight). When T'Pol asks him to protect V'Lar, he does so really without much information.

Archer overcomes deep-seated beliefs because of T'Pol
Archer always blamed the Vulcans for his father's death, not that they murdered his father, but by association; Vulcans prevented his father from achieving his dreams and he died without seeing it happen. To Archer, I wonder if that's almost as bad as if they actually killed him. Not only does he begin to trust the Vulcans, he agrees to help the father of her people in the Vulcan arc, hosting his katra. Talk about a change of heart.

Phlox told us Archer is attracted to T'Pol
Phlox rightly diagnosed that he's attracted to the Vulcan under his command in A Night in Sickbay. Archer admits it to himself after a revealing dream and some embarrassing Freudian slips.

Archer trusts T'Pol more than Trip, even
When Archer has to reveal information about time travelers, chase after the Xindi in Carpenter Street, and more ... he asks T'Pol to come with him. Not his buddy of more than 10 years, Trip. Nor does he ask his armory officer, a guy who has tactical experience.

I guess it was a long-winded answer. I would say there's elements of all three of your suppositions. And there's more. For me, I simply never bought that T'Pol and Trip were in love. There was physicality between them, but none of what's above. In television, I don't want to be told: hey, they got it on so they like each other. Instead, I want to see over the course of time two people who become inexplicably interwoven into each other's lives.

More over, I don't like the idea of Trip being in love with T'Pol who seems indifferent to him. That seems cruel, even for a Vulcan; Spock had a hard time with Nurse Chapel - he was never ambivalent. And Trip had several girlfriends during the show.

In the end, I'm very happy with the way things wound up between T'Pol and Archer and that it's canon.

Aquarius, you asked how A/T'Pers would deal with Trip. I think that's hard. I have to admit part of why I think TATV was okay is that in a way, it's now easy; Trip has been removed and everyone can still like and accept Trip without causing him hurt. Like I wrote above, I really don't think Archer, if he knew, would do anything about the way he feels about T'Pol. If he didn't know and like in Extinct his inhibitions were lowered, I think he'd be on her like white on rice ... and he was. I also don't think T'Pol is very experienced in her emotions. I doubt she really understands how she feels about Archer. And I can't really see her initiating anything with him; I think it would have to come from him.
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Re: How do A/T'P fans view T'Pol's relationship with Trip?

Postby Brandyjane » Wed Oct 24, 2012 5:58 pm

Wow! Gammara, I think this is the best defense of Archer/T'Pol that I've ever read. Awesome! And, what's more, I'm saying this as a pretty committed TnT 'shipper (though I did toy with Archer/T'Pol off and on when the show first aired).

I enjoyed the whole post, but I particularly liked these parts of your answer:

gammara wrote:T'Pol trusts Archer a lot
When T'Pol received a token from her mother with a map, she made a beeline to Archer's office to talk with him about it. She confides in him over her mentor's fall from grace and needed protection, she confides in him after her mental rape, and she confides in him about the seven she had to hunt down on Vulcan. Archer is her confidante.

T'Pol doesn't just mourn Archer once and smell his clothes, she mourns him many times over when he's hurt or in trouble
Every time Archer manages to get himself in a jam, T'Pol mourns him. And she seems to pick Archer over Trip.
* Emotionally asking him not to go in Azati Prime, and then petting his smelly quadraped and barking at Trip to get the hell out of the Ready Room (Vulcanly of course)
* Staying with Archer in Twilight instead of staying aboard Enterprise
* Deciding to stay and go into the Expanse (she said that to Soval it was to help Archer)
* Putting her relationship with her mother at risk (the same one she decided to marry Koss for) in the Vulcan arc


I've never articulated it this well before, but I really think that you are on to something here, and I think that the writers did these things intentionally. Even though the last two seasons were very TnT 'shippy, I think that they were intentionally leaving the door open for Archer/T'Pol if the series had continued.



Aquarius wrote:As a writer, I would likewise be interested to see how A/T'P fans handle Trip in their writings and other imaginings. Personally, as a TnTer, I was always okay with T'Pol having feelings for Archer, because very few people seem to ever have just one relationship or just one love in their life. It seemed more "normal" to me if she had feelings for both.


Yes! I don't know how well it would have gone onscreen, but I would LOVE to read a good love triangle story. I totally think she had feelings for Archer, too, and if things hadn't developed with Trip, I think she would have eventually gone there with Jon, instead. If you go with what happened in TATV, maybe things did develop romantically between T'Pol and Jon, after all.
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Re: How do A/T'P fans view T'Pol's relationship with Trip?

Postby gammara » Wed Oct 24, 2012 11:43 pm

Thanks, Brandyjane! I too like triangle fics where characters try to work things out. And in the meantime there is juicy conflict.

I thought I heard, during the series, they were considering it. Who knows! It may've just been a rumor, but that would've been interesting.
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Re: How do A/T'P fans view T'Pol's relationship with Trip?

Postby Kathy Rose » Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:26 pm

Very thoughtful insights, gammara.

gammara wrote:T'Pol trusts Archer a lot
When T'Pol received a token from her mother with a map, she made a beeline to Archer's office to talk with him about it. She confides in him over her mentor's fall from grace and needed protection, she confides in him after her mental rape, and she confides in him about the seven she had to hunt down on Vulcan. Archer is her confidante.

T'Pol doesn't just mourn Archer once and smell his clothes, she mourns him many times over when he's hurt or in trouble
Every time Archer manages to get himself in a jam, T'Pol mourns him.

Archer overcomes deep-seated beliefs because of T'Pol
Archer always blamed the Vulcans for his father's death, not that they murdered his father, but by association; Vulcans prevented his father from achieving his dreams and he died without seeing it happen. To Archer, I wonder if that's almost as bad as if they actually killed him. Not only does he begin to trust the Vulcans, he agrees to help the father of her people in the Vulcan arc, hosting his katra. Talk about a change of heart.



These are all things I had noticed about their relationship, but often seemed to be overlooked or ignored.
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