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T'Pol's friendship with Archer

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T'Pol's friendship with Archer

Postby panyasan » Sat Dec 01, 2012 11:26 am

I am currently writing a TnT story - that's the reason I am posting this subject in the TnT section. In that story T'Pol's friendship with Archer is going to play a part. (It also deals with Trip's friendship with Archer to a lesser extent).

I have a specific view of T'Pol's friendship with Archer and because I encountered many other views of this friendship, I thought it would be nice to discuss.

My view has been colored with my experience some years ago as I worked in an international organization. I come from a small European country and I noticed that when people met me they had a certain view about my country that colored their view of me. Talking about their views and prejudices doesn't work. I tried to offer them my friendship and let them judge me of what I am - not what they think my country is. (If they wanted to know more about my country, I would gladly tell them more).

For me, T'Pol had the same strategy. She is the only Vulcan on the ship and she knows prejudices would die hard. So she is offering Archer her friendship. Archer reacts in kind and appreciated the offer. However, the relationship is the same like I would have with a colleague - you could tell stuff about your home situation (I have a parents meeting this afternoon), but never would you share information that effects you personally (I got a fight with my husband and I am feeling depressed).

I also don't think that Jon is really interested in T'Pol's Vulcan background or that he understands Vulcan culture. This makes it very hard for T'Pol to share personal stuff (I don't think she wants to, but if she would), because her deepest struggles are connected with her being Vulcan.

So Jon and T'Pol have a professional friendship, they respect each other and try very hard to maintain their friendship. I also think T'Pol understands a great deal of the struggles Jon is facing as captain. But there is always this distance of which they are both happy with and it never gets really really personal. I don't see Jon telling T'Pol about his frustration as a captain or T'Pol telling him about the strained relationship she has with her mother. I do see her talk about this stuff with Trip, even it would take her a lot of time and slow adjustments to share that personal stuff with Trip.

What do you think?
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Re: T'Pol's friendship with Archer

Postby Honeybee » Sat Dec 01, 2012 5:18 pm

Well, we saw T'Pol and Archer develop a mutual respect for each other over the first season which was based on her winning him over and vice versa - but it was all professional/diplomatic. Both of them had prejudices against each others species and it was always present. I do agree that at that time in particular, you wouldn't see them get too personal with each other. Later, after episodes such as First Flight, that might have softened a little bit.
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Re: T'Pol's friendship with Archer

Postby Kathy Rose » Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:55 am

panyasan wrote:My view has been colored with my experience some years ago as I worked in an international organization. I come from a small European country and I noticed that when people met me they had a certain view about my country that colored their view of me. Talking about their views and prejudices doesn't work. I tried to offer them my friendship and let them judge me of what I am - not what they think my country is. (If they wanted to know more about my country, I would gladly tell them more).

For me, T'Pol had the same strategy. She is the only Vulcan on the ship and she knows prejudices would die hard. So she is offering Archer her friendship. Archer reacts in kind and appreciated the offer. However, the relationship is the same like I would have with a colleague - you could tell stuff about your home situation (I have a parents meeting this afternoon), but never would you share information that effects you personally (I got a fight with my husband and I am feeling depressed).



That makes a lot of sense. I've run into the same thing as well, although it had more to do with heritage than country of residency. And it's a great help to have actually experience. What's the old saying? "Write about what you know." It lends authenticity as well as credibility to what you write.

panyasan wrote:I also don't think that Jon is really interested in T'Pol's Vulcan background or that he understands Vulcan culture. This makes it very hard for T'Pol to share personal stuff (I don't think she wants to, but if she would), because her deepest struggles are connected with her being Vulcan.


It would make it incredibly difficult to share personal stuff if she is conflicted about her heritage, especially if it is with someone who, at least at first, was somewhat hostile toward her species, I would think. We all know Jon and Trip weren't too happy about her being on the ship at first.


panyasan wrote:So Jon and T'Pol have a professional friendship, they respect each other and try very hard to maintain their friendship. I also think T'Pol understands a great deal of the struggles Jon is facing as captain. But there is always this distance of which they are both happy with and it never gets really really personal. I don't see Jon telling T'Pol about his frustration as a captain...


If it has some bearing on a mission or a decision he has to make, I could see him telling her something about his frustration, but only if he's seeking input in making that decision. I think he would respect that she has a "bigger picture" view than humans, who hadn't ventured far from Earth at the beginning of the series, although it might be hard for him to admit that.

I think a professional relationship, based on mutual respect, would also make it hard to have a closer personal relationship. That same respect that allows them to function well together often necessitates drawing a boundary around the more personal aspects so as to avoid endangering the professional relationship.

panyasan wrote:... or T'Pol telling him about the strained relationship she has with her mother. I do see her talk about this stuff with Trip, even it would take her a lot of time and slow adjustments to share that personal stuff with Trip.


I have to agree with you on that.
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Re: T'Pol's friendship with Archer

Postby Brandyjane » Sat Dec 08, 2012 12:03 pm

After reading this, I just realized that the only person we really see T'Pol share deeply intimate issues with is Phlox after her trellium addiction. I think that's probably a combination of him being the only other alien on the ship, someone with a lot of wisdom, and a trained counselor (I'm pretty sure he said he had psychiatric training).

The question of sharing with Archer is really fascinating to me. I think Jon and T'Pol ultimately form a very real, deep friendship over the course of the series, but you're right that it is primarily work/mission-oriented. That doesn't make it a shallow friendship - their common goals are quite deep. I also think that either one of them would sacrifice his or her life for the other. I do think they genuinely love each other. The nature of that love is debatable. At a minimum, I think it's "complicated."

I would submit that Jon, not T'Pol, may ultimately be the one who stops that friendship from progressing to a deeper level through sharing more personal stuff. T'Pol really opens up a lot as the series progresses. Given the right set of circumstances, I do think she could share personal thoughts and feelings with Jon. However, I don't think Jon would be comfortable reciprocating. I think he puts a guard up against just about everyone, even Trip and Erika Hernandez. (Seriously, I don't think that he and Erika did a whole lot of talking through his issues in "Home.")

I get the impression that he longs for relationships but that there's something there in his psyche that prevents him from really getting deeper. I love his friendship with Trip, but it's always clear that Jon is the dominate personality with Trip more in the little brother or protege role. Jon inspires loyalty, admiration, and even love, but he puts up a wall against true intimacy. He and Erika probably had the closest thing to an equal relationship we saw, but that doesn't really develop. Every other relationship is defined by Jon as the top of the hierarchy. I'm not trying to denigrate him - I don't think it's really an ego trip with him at all. It's just the way it is. I have the feeling that if he ever found out about the true nature of Trip and T'Pol's relationship, he would be happy for his friends, but also sad and a little jealous that he can't have that. I 'ship Jon and Hoshi, but at the same time I just can't see this man ever forming a deep, lasting relationship. I think he's destined to be a bit of a lone wolf.

(Sorry, this is really rambling. I tried to make it more organized than just my stream of consciousness, but it's just not coming together for me this morning. I stayed up too late watching "Doctor Who" on Netflix.)
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Re: T'Pol's friendship with Archer

Postby Glory1863 » Sat Dec 08, 2012 5:36 pm

I'm going to throw out a couple of things, even though they are pretty mundane.

1. Archer knows better than to get into what essentially is an office romance. A break-up at some time into a long-term mission and out in the middle of nowhere is going to be more than a little unpleasant. Unlike Trip, just where is Archer going to transfer (or T'Pol for that matter)?

2. If Archer truly cared for the woman he was involved with, then he would not want her subjected to carping about preferential treatment because she was sleeping with the boss. You know that when it comes to departmental power/energy distribution, Malcolm would eventually be thinking it even if he didn't say it.

3. Archer knows himself well enough to know that he is married to his work/ship. He's a decent enough guy to think that anyone who is marriage material shouldn't have to always come in second best (even if they're willing to).

4. T'Pol really needs to get a better handle on who she is and what she wants. She seems to be able to do that much better in the professional arena than in the personal.

5. There's absolutely nothing wrong with strong friendships that are not romantic, and that includes between men and women. Not everything has to be a 'ship (or explicit), although in fan fic it often seems like it is (does).
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Re: T'Pol's friendship with Archer

Postby panyasan » Sat Dec 15, 2012 7:04 pm

Thanks all, that's very insightful. I agree that Archer and T'Pol seem to have a good working relationship, but I am not sure I would define it as very deep.
When I watched TOS and see Spock, Kirk and Bones - I know they are good friends. I can see it in the way they interacted, the subtle jokes, the way they feel so comfortable with each other. When I watch Trip and Malcolm - I see the same. Trip-Archer-T'Pol dining together - ditto. When I see the first scene between Hoshi and Jon - I knew they had a past history.

I don't see any deep relationship between T'Pol and Archer - beside the fact that she took him on a mission to find Menos (I think because she needed a neutral person) and is very caring for him in the Vulcan dessert in season 4. I see Archer defending T'Pol in the first season - but he goes so much through the motions, it doesn't seem to come from the heart. The only scene I can think of that Archer and T'Pol share a moment of closeness is when he compliments her for standing up for the Humans in front of the Vulcans at the beginning of season. (ANIS came so much out of the left field, I had a hard time believing it, being a ordinatiry ST fan back then.) The problem for me is that we are told that T'Pol and Archer have a deep bond - but like Spock-Kirk-Bones I like to feel it and draw that conclusion myself.

By this, I am saying they haven't got a good relationship and respect for each other, and for me, both of them are willing to keep this relationship in tact.

The following part I found very, very interesting and for me a good explanation of Jon:

I get the impression that he longs for relationships but that there's something there in his psyche that prevents him from really getting deeper. I love his friendship with Trip, but it's always clear that Jon is the dominate personality with Trip more in the little brother or protege role. Jon inspires loyalty, admiration, and even love, but he puts up a wall against true intimacy. He and Erika probably had the closest thing to an equal relationship we saw, but that doesn't really develop. Every other relationship is defined by Jon as the top of the hierarchy. I'm not trying to denigrate him - I don't think it's really an ego trip with him at all. It's just the way it is. I have the feeling that if he ever found out about the true nature of Trip and T'Pol's relationship, he would be happy for his friends, but also sad and a little jealous that he can't have that. I 'ship Jon and Hoshi, but at the same time I just can't see this man ever forming a deep, lasting relationship. I think he's destined to be a bit of a lone wolf.


It's funny, because I have been outlining a Jon and Hoshi story with no happy ending - with the same thoughts about Jon in the back of my mind. Maybe I should write it after all.

Thank for all your comments!
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Re: T'Pol's friendship with Archer

Postby Brandyjane » Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:38 pm

I would like to read that, Panyasan.
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