the delphic expanse

(2x22) COGENITOR: No easy answers

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Re: (2x22) COGENITOR: No easy answers

Postby panyasan » Thu Dec 29, 2011 1:29 am

I agree with the things already been said, like Jon, T'Pol and too a lesser extent Trip being out of character. Seeing T'Pol as a compassionate woman, I don't like her actions in this episode.

What bothers me most is that the Prime Directive (no interfering with alien cultures), that hasn't been writing yet, is taken to the extreme. We see in other ST series that Kirk and Picard interpretated the Prime Directive in such a way, they interfere with alien cultures when they think it's a good thing to do.
As Honeybee pointed out, when different cultures meet, those cultures get influenced by each other. That isn't always a bad thing - it also depends on how the cultures meet and how open the cultures are at that point of time. If a society really doesn't want change - change will not come, how hard the other party is promoting it.

My second point is that it isn't clear how Starfleet thinks about asylum. Are they an organization that support people who seeks freedom of thoughts and living? Judging from this episode, they aren't. However, we have seen Jon giving people sort of asylum in other episodes.

What really hurts when it comes to Cogenitor is the way Jon reacts to the suicide of Charles. People who have dealt with suicide in the circle of family and friends know that there are two reactions to suicide: why? and what could I have done to prevent this? It's hard to realize the suicide is a decision made by that person.

In the conversation between Jon and Trip Jon seems to put all the blame and guilt of the suicide of Charles on Trip, who has been the only one to show Charles that Human vitrue of kindness. I am glad Paulinem wrote such a wonderful story about Trip and Jon dealing with this situation, because I did think Jon's reaction was very bad and put the character of Jon (which I like a lot) in a very bad light.

Even when I don't agree with many things in the episode, it's still a thought provoking episode. With wonderful scenes between Trip and Charles. When I saw this episode, it was the first time I started to like Trip.
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Re: (2x22) COGENITOR: No easy answers

Postby Mr Smith » Thu Dec 29, 2011 11:14 am

Honeybee wrote:I like that it's possible Malcolm gets laid (yeah!).

This is my favourite thing about the episode. 8-)
"Is that really how you see me? The eternal pessimist? The grim reaper? I don't want to die, what makes you think I want to die?"
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Re: (2x22) COGENITOR: No easy answers

Postby Brandyjane » Thu Dec 29, 2011 11:32 am

This is one of my favorite and least favorite episodes at the exact same time. I love it because the ending - Charles's suicide - was, to me, so unexpected. I didn't expect an episode of Ent to take such a dark turn. I was genuinely shocked the first time I saw it.

Yet, like you all have already pointed out, so many characters just seem so out of character. One thing I think that would have helped is if Charles had actually taken some of the initiative. Trip's instincts were good in wanting to help Charles, but the way he went about it all was kind of stupid. Did he really think no one would notice all of the sneaking around? I would have preferred it if, after having some positive interactions with Trip, Charles had come to him to ask for asylum, with Trip assuring Charles that certainly Captain Archer and the rest of humanity would "do the right thing."

T'Pol's behavior disappointed me quite a bit. I think that her advice to Archer to send Charles back makes sense for her character, but I didn't like the easy way she dismissed the ethical issues. Yes, of course she's a Vulcan, but we didn't even get a glimmer of hesitation or unease from her. T'Pol has expressed compassion before, so why not now? Even way back in "Broken Bow" she treats Trip's desire to help others in need with more patience and understanding than she does here. The worst part, for me, was the sort of self-satisfied attitude she took when she was assuring Jon that he'd made the right decision - her decision. I wish we'd seen her reaction after hearing of the Cogenitor's death.

As for Jon, the first time I saw the episode, I thought it was outright character assassination. But after several more viewings, I'm a little more sympathetic to him. What would have happened if he'd let Charles stay? The Vissians were certainly charming people, but they had far superior technology. I don't think they would have just let Charles go. There were just too few cogenitors and their purpose was too valuable for him to just let one go. I think the Vissians would have done what it took to get Charles back. The Vissian captain showed great restraint in holding back and letting Jon have time to come to a decision on his own. I think that was because he knew that one way or another, Charles was not leaving with Enterprise. Jon had just spent several days aboard a shuttle that could fly into a star. He was very aware of the limits of his own technology compared to the Vissians. I wish we'd heard more about what went into Jon's decision, because I really think that was part of it. We should have seen him wrestling with it.

As for the chewing-out Jon gave Trip, I can't really excuse it, but I do sort of understand it. The look on Jon's face is tortured. He is guilty. I think that much of what he says to Trip is directed at himself. (A darker explanation would be that Jon is preparing himself to throw Trip under the bus for this mistake, but I just can't go there. I like both men too much to consider that possibility very seriously.)
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Re: (2x22) COGENITOR: No easy answers

Postby Glory1863 » Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:47 pm

Just some random thoughts on this.

I keep trying to figure out what the writer's agenda is in this episode. The best I can come up with is an object lesson in the Law of Unintended Consequences or, as the cliche says, "the road to Hell is paved with good intentions."

Once again, I'm very disappointed in Archer and on several levels. I expect better of a Star Trek captain. I understand his wanting to like the Vissians because they didn't shoot first and ask questions second, but does he really not get bad vibes about how the cogenitor is being treated? Is he really that dense? Not usually, but apparently this time. I understand that as a former hot-shot pilot, he'd want to check out the Vissian's "ride." What I don't understand is his being self-indulgent in this matter and being derelict in his duty to his ship and crew. Tucker needed Archer - as both friend and captain - to appropriately deal with an uncomfortable situation. T'Pol wasn't going to get where Tucker was coming from, and he wasn't going to get where she was coming from. Archer let both of them down. He needed to be home and taking care of business, not out joy riding. Archer then puts all the blame on Tucker. The best I can hope for is that part of that anger came from realizing that he (Archer) had had his own priorities screwed up, and not just for setting prior "bad" examples for a junior officer, but also for not tending to his own duty in this instance. If anyone could have opened a dialog about why Vissians felt it necessary to treat cogenitors the way they did as opposed to with the honor and respect commensurate with what they bring to their people, it should have been Archer. Didn't happen. Didn't even try.

I'm not surprised by T'Pol. To me, she is right in character: The character I didn't care for from minute 1 in Broken Bow. On the whole, I don't find Enterprise Vulcans to be particularly nice people. More often than not, they seem more like Spock's ex than like Spock. This is just another case of if stupid human had just listened to oh so superior Vulcan in the first place, then this bad thing wouldn't have happened. I don't know about anybody else, but I'm way past tired of this theme. A compassionate Vulcan would have used logic to help Archer open the above-mentioned dialog with the Vissians. Didn't happen. Didn't even try.

I must say that I enjoyed Mr. Trinneer's performance. I really believed all the emotions from decent guy who is at first curious, then troubled and confused, then perhaps overeager in his attempts to "help" and finally crushed by what happened. I also enjoyed Andreas Katsulis' performance as the Vissian captain, but then I liked his GKar on Babylon 5 and even his one-armed man in the Fugitive movie. He was a very good character actor.
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Re: (2x22) COGENITOR: No easy answers

Postby Honeybee » Thu Dec 29, 2011 1:14 pm

I think I said it in the upthread but this was Andreas Katsulis's final onscreen performance. I think he died of cancer shortly after. He is good and has a strong screen presence which really helps the episode.
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Re: (2x22) COGENITOR: No easy answers

Postby Brandyjane » Fri Dec 30, 2011 11:34 am

I didn't realize he had died. I really liked "The Fugitive."
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