the delphic expanse

(2x18) The Crossing: Body Snatching Wisps

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Re: (1x18) The Crossing: Body Snatching Wisps

Postby EntAllat » Fri Nov 18, 2011 2:22 pm

Aquarius wrote:I'm not ready to discuss the ep yet, but I just wanted to add my voice to the Ginger/Mary Ann thing. If you ask most guys, sure, they'd want to sleep with Ginger, but she's just way too high maintenance for most guys. Mary Ann is pretty and down to earth, so while she didn't exude the sexuality that Ginger did, most guys find her more appealing.

I think it's pretty much the same for T'Pol and Hoshi. T'Pol, for all her beauty and Vulcan-ness is too high maintenance for most guys. Hoshi's the "real" girl that they actually want.

But rather than let it get me upset, I just kind of think of it like this: like light and dark or night and day or whatever, you can't really have one without the other. We don't have to view it in a manner that means one undermines the other.

Just my loose change.


This is why I love watching these things and chatting about them during and after. Again, I hadn't thought of Hoshi and T'Pol this way but it makes so much sense, and now my head is rolling with so much more .... stuff ... for the two of them in the larger fics I'm working on.
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Re: (1x18) The Crossing: Body Snatching Wisps

Postby Brandyjane » Sat Nov 19, 2011 11:16 am

There's not a "perfect" type of woman out there, whether we're talking about looks, personality, or the whole package. Unfortunately the way Hoshi and T'Pol were treated in Enterprise kind of reinforced the idea that there is a "right" way for a woman to look or act. Hoshi is a great friend, but if you want to be hot and have guys fall all over you, you have to look like T'Pol. That's the message that was sent. Of course, the weird thing is that Linda Park is beautiful, and I've read plenty of comments by heterosexual guys who agree! I've always wondered why there has to be just one designated Hot Girl on a show like Ent. I don't know if this is the reason or not, but one thing that occurred to me was that maybe the writers decided that all of the lust/attraction has to be focused on just one woman because if it's spread around it will look like the writers are objectifying women in general, not just one woman on the show.

Now back to "The Crossing..." I love CT's performance in this episode. Even though Wisp-Malcolm is such a creep, Wisp-Trip in the mess hall creeps me out even more. Wisp-Trip is a different person than Trip. You can tell from the moment we see him, from the very way he holds his body differently than Trip does. And his eyes...Ugh! I don't know how it's possible for Connor to make those gorgeous blue eyes of his ugly, but the expression on his face when we first get a close-up of Wisp-Trip is truly disturbing.
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Re: (1x18) The Crossing: Body Snatching Wisps

Postby Aquarius » Sat Nov 19, 2011 11:38 am

Brandyjane wrote:There's not a "perfect" type of woman out there, whether we're talking about looks, personality, or the whole package. Unfortunately the way Hoshi and T'Pol were treated in Enterprise kind of reinforced the idea that there is a "right" way for a woman to look or act. Hoshi is a great friend, but if you want to be hot and have guys fall all over you, you have to look like T'Pol. That's the message that was sent. Of course, the weird thing is that Linda Park is beautiful, and I've read plenty of comments by heterosexual guys who agree! I've always wondered why there has to be just one designated Hot Girl on a show like Ent. I don't know if this is the reason or not, but one thing that occurred to me was that maybe the writers decided that all of the lust/attraction has to be focused on just one woman because if it's spread around it will look like the writers are objectifying women in general, not just one woman on the show.


Honestly, I don't think it has so much to do with a reluctance to have more than one hottie on the show. It has more to do with keeping your characters distinctive. Producers don't want characters that are too similar because that's kind of bland -- unless the drama comes from the conflict of two characters being "too much alike." So if both girls were hotties, there'd have to be some kind of rivalry, and they'd have to be radically different in another way (one smart and one not so much, for example -- which would not work well in the context of Star Trek). While the goal of good character development is to make the viewer at home feel like he or she is watching "real people," the truth of the matter of "how it's done" is that each character is nothing more than a "type," with little details filled in for personalization. If you analyze it critically, no matter how "real" a character seems, there's still some identifiable exaggeration/unreality compared to someone you may know in real life who's like that, because that's needed in order to make it come across in the screen. Another reason for not making them too similar is because you want the viewer to "know who the characters are" at any point they start watching -- you just started watching in Season 3 and you've only seen a couple of episodes, but you can distinguish between them through more than just physical attributes.

Also, if you ask most straight guys what they think, I think most will answer that T'Pol is a great fantasy, but Hoshi is the girl they'd rather be with. Tyra Banks did this thing on her show a few years ago and I thought it was pretty revealing -- men perceive women differently than women do. The gist of what they found was, men are more likely to respond to a vibrant personality and *self-assuredness* than they do a physical "ideal." In fact, Tyra took a panel of men, showed them bathing suit photos of women from the neck down, and the results were shocking. More curvy-to-overweight girls got the "oh, hell YEAH!" from guys than supermodel types. When asked "why did you like that photo?" a lot of it had to do with things like the posture projecting confidence or looking like she was having a good time or whatever.

So any way, I know that this is convoluted and likely to get split off into another thread (sorry -- I'm too tired and lazy this morning to cherry pick bits and pieces out of this one for starting a new one elsewhere!), but whenever I see "babe of the show" conversation, I can't help thinking that the problem may not be men and what they want, but rather what women *think* men want.

Just some more loose change I found in the couch.
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Re: (1x18) The Crossing: Body Snatching Wisps

Postby Glory1863 » Sat Nov 19, 2011 11:40 am

Brandyjane wrote:There's not a "perfect" type of woman out there, whether we're talking about looks, personality, or the whole package. Unfortunately the way Hoshi and T'Pol were treated in Enterprise kind of reinforced the idea that there is a "right" way for a woman to look or act. Hoshi is a great friend, but if you want to be hot and have guys fall all over you, you have to look like T'Pol. That's the message that was sent. Of course, the weird thing is that Linda Park is beautiful, and I've read plenty of comments by heterosexual guys who agree! I've always wondered why there has to be just one designated Hot Girl on a show like Ent. I don't know if this is the reason or not, but one thing that occurred to me was that maybe the writers decided that all of the lust/attraction has to be focused on just one woman because if it's spread around it will look like the writers are objectifying women in general, not just one woman on the show.


Even in ensemble shows, there are characters that are meant to be more important than others or who break out as fan favorites. Not sure which was the case for T'Pol, but clearly she was one of the "some are more equal than others." Hoshi has the added hurdle of being Asian. For whatever reason, Asian actors and actresses have a harder time getting the top tier roles. They still get stereotyped and are still often token characters. Has Hoshi really progressed much beyond being Sulu at Uhura's station? You have to wonder if any thought was ever given to the Captain Archer role being played by an Asian or even T'Pol's role. Not slamming Mr. Bakula or Ms. Blalock, just pointing out that Ms. Park might not get a fair chance at roles like that because TPTB just don't imagine an Asian filling them.
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Re: (1x18) The Crossing: Body Snatching Wisps

Postby panyasan » Sat Nov 19, 2011 6:35 pm

I totally agree with Aquarius, based on conversations and remarks made by male friends. Men are more interested in a girl with a sparkling personalty (a girl you can laugh with) and nice looking than a real knock out. It's not they aren't attracted to such a girl, but the attraction of personality plus nice looking is more.

There is also a down side of being so very good looking: people takes their distance. For T'Pol - as a beautiful alien on a ship with Humans - it makes her very alone and isolated plus she has to deal with all those alien Human emotions concerning her appearance.
As for Hoshi, she seems rather outgoing and easy to get along, but in season three and four, she seems to be more isolated and alone.

Like Glory said, Asian actors have a harder time to get a more prominent role and it would have been nice to see more of Hoshi (also in the role as an attractive woman, because she is). (BTW, why do those Asian characters always come from the same countries like Japan, India and China? Would be nice to see some one from South Korea or Singapore. And if you create a Japanese character, why not take advantage of her culture and use elements in your show? With Hoshi, besides the kimono wearing of her father and the Chinese(?) soup she made of her grandmother, we don't see much of her culture.)

Back to the Crossing - They could have made it a little more creepy and exciting, by making the Wisp a little bit more freighting (I probably am influenced by an excellent fic on this site which I read recently, which does exactly that). I also felt the remarks of BBQ and girls on the beach Trip made after his Wisp experience a bit lame. Sure there must be other things to see and on his mind.
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Re: (1x18) The Crossing: Body Snatching Wisps

Postby Brandyjane » Sun Nov 20, 2011 11:22 am

:twisted: Whose to say Trip didn't see some other, less lame, sights? Maybe he self-censored to avoid awkwardness. Hmm...There's probably an NC-17 story in this somewhere.
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Re: (1x18) The Crossing: Body Snatching Wisps

Postby panyasan » Sun Nov 20, 2011 3:08 pm

Brandyjane wrote::twisted: Whose to say Trip didn't see some other, less lame, sights? Maybe he self-censored to avoid awkwardness. Hmm...There's probably an NC-17 story in this somewhere.

Hey! Don't give me story bunnies! :lol: :lol:
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Re: (1x18) The Crossing: Body Snatching Wisps

Postby Brandyjane » Sun Nov 20, 2011 4:09 pm

Well, somebody has to go there!
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Re: (2x18) The Crossing: Body Snatching Wisps

Postby Honeybee » Sun Nov 20, 2011 7:05 pm

I'd like to think that Trip had some more grown up adventures - this is still during the season 2 let's make trip a lightweight phase. It's around cogenitor when they start giving him more layers, such as an interest in classical music. I know that the original script of North Star had him saying he knew how to ride a horse because he'd seen every Hopalong Cassidy film, but they wisely changed it to every John Ford movie, which is way cooler and more mature.
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