Women, TOS and all that

[Misplaced]

As for the women of the original series, I think the suits didn't want women as anything more than window dressing and therefore little more than perfect dolls helping the men save the day. There was so much potential with the original 1st Officer and they squashed that quickly. So I don't even think the women of TOS were fleshed out enough to be Marys.

I whole-heartedly agree with this assessment. Uhura is the only female role that gets any kind of respect and... (don't throw things at me)... I think I like JJ Abram's version of her better in the reboot. (No dissing Nichelle -- I love the actress.)

Did anyone ever read the Anne of Green Gables books? In one of the later books, Anne writes an adventure story - and everyone finds her hero annoying and her villain really attractive and interesting. All her friends suggest she redeem the villain and have him end up with her protagonist. Anne throws a fit, because she had created "the perfect" man in her hero and couldn't understand why her friends thought it was boring.

I haven't read it... (only saw the films -- where, I believe, her friend Diana suggests gently that maybe Anne ought to write stories about "real" people... and Anne throws a fit.)

[crystalswolf]

Uhura is the only female role that gets any kind of respect and... (don't throw things at me)... I think I like JJ Abram's version of her better in the reboot. (No dissing Nichelle -- I love the actress.)

I agree! She was strong, knew exactly what she wanted and didn't take no for an answer, not to mention, she didn't allow her relationship to get in the way of her goals. Although, I would take it a step further (which I know is the big controversy) and say that I absolutely LOVE Spock and Uhura. It's about time Spock gets the girl instead of Kirk getting all of them. Not to mention, their intimate scenes were beautiful. The two actors had so much chemistry. Sorry... mind started to wander.

[Misplaced]

Uhura is the only female role that gets any kind of respect and... (don't throw things at me)... I think I like JJ Abram's version of her better in the reboot. (No dissing Nichelle -- I love the actress.)

I agree! She was strong, knew exactly what she wanted and didn't take no for an answer, not to mention, she didn't allow her relationship to get in the way of her goals. Although, I would take it a step further (which I know is the big controversy) and say that I absolutely LOVE Spock and Uhura. It's about time Spock gets the girl instead of Kirk getting all of them. Not to mention, their intimate scenes were beautiful. The two actors had so much chemistry. Sorry... mind started to wander.

Just to keep OT for another minute: I love reboot Spock/Uhura! Love, love, love it... and even read fanfic about it! I have no designs to write Sp/Uh fanfic myself, as one of my favorite origin stories that I've read is so spot on with my "head canon" that I don't feel a need to add to it. MU Sp/Uh on the other hand... Hm...

Back on topic: I think for me the litmus test is really whether the character is believably fleshed out or not. As Rigil mentioned, flaws are important as well as strengths.

[Kathy Rose]

As for the women of the original series, I think the suits didn't want women as anything more than window dressing and therefore little more than perfect dolls helping the men save the day. There was so much potential with the original 1st Officer and they squashed that quickly. So I don't even think the women of TOS were fleshed out enough to be Marys.

The original 1st Officer aspect is interesting. It's my understanding that the way Gene Roddenberry conceived that role was that the first officer was a female, possibly alien, who was very controlled in her emotions and very efficient -- and was played in a pilot/screen tests by Majel. That character was nixed by executives who didn't like that representation of a strong, alien woman. (Put strong, and alien, and woman all together, and they couldn't handle it, apparently. ) So the alien role was changed to Spock. Majel was then given the Nurse Chapel role.

[Honeybee]

So, the women in TOS conversation was so interesting - I thought I'd split it off.

And yes, Number One in the pilot, The Cage was a great character - essentially the character Spock became and she was played by Majel.

The suits claimed that focus groups of women hated "a woman in charge" and I'm sure there were women who would have not liked that, but that was the "Man Men" era - and the men in charge knew how to pack focus groups to their own way of thinking. They did it all the time. (This isn't just imagining on my part, there has been research of advertising and marketing of that era that confirms this. You can make a focus group think whatever you want, if you set it up that way.) I tend to believe the women who made up a significant (and still somewhat ignored) portion of the original fanbase would have totally embraced Number One - had she been allowed to continue. Of course, then we wouldn't have Vulcans.

Somewhere, there is an Alternate Universe where the pilot wasn't reshot and Captain Pike was the hero.