the delphic expanse

ADMIN NOTE: This topic was split off from the Dialogue 101 thread, in an effort to give participants the room they need in order to discuss the pros and cons of putting semicolons in dialogue.

Okay, Aquarius my friend, I had to register for the forum just in order to argue with you about this.

Your reasoning here makes no sense to me, because you seem to be assuming that dialogue in prose is the same as dialogue in real life, or in a screenplay, which is only created to be performed, and where -- you are correct -- the slight change in length of pause provided by a semi-colon wouldn't register. However, even in a screenplay I would argue that it might help the actor follow the logic of the line.

In dialogue in fiction, however, that reasoning makes no sense at all, because when we read dialogue in fiction, we are still READING.

Thus, all the reasons for using semi-colons still apply. In lists spoken within dialogue, they can help us distinguish the organization of a complicated series. In a sentence, they can help us see where independent clauses nonetheless have a closer relationship than separate sentences would.

Similarly, the dialogue we read is almost always much better organized and fluent than what we would hear in real life. That's because we're READING, not listening to real people talk. Reading realistic real-life dialogue would make us nuts and waste our time and make our heroes sound like blithering idiots.

That's my opinion, anyway. I'm also curious where you got this concept.

No problems with the first lesson -- I totally agree on that one and applaud you for saying it, because it can't be said enough.

And hello, forum members. I've been staying out of it because I waste too much time on fanfic as it is, but this one I just couldn't resist.

Well how do you do, Alelou.

"Where I got this concept" about the semicolon is several sources, resulting from a culmination of the training I'm pursuing in screenwriting, one of my majors in school (English Language, Literature, and Writing), and the various workshops I've taken and books I've read on the craft of writing.

I would also like to point out that classes in my English major have involved both descriptive perspectives (as in how people actually use English/linguistics) as well as the prescriptive shoulds/shouldn'ts of grammar. Furthermore, one of the first things we learn in writing dialogue in a screenplay is that there is a difference between "real speech' and "natural speech"--a lesson I intend to present in the future.

So your assertion I'm assuming that dialogue in prose is the same as dialogue in real life is incorrect. I most definitely have that difference top of mind every time I sit down to write a line of dialogue, in whatever form, be it in a short story or a screenplay.

I realize that I don't yet teach in front of a classroom, and that you do--but I'm getting there. For now, I've had two professors this semester alone tell their respective classes not to put the semicolon in dialogue--one is my screenwriting prof, one is my Writing Style and Technology prof.Two professors I respect and trust have said, "Don't do it," so I'm advising not to do it as well.

Is it possible it's a stylistic/preference thing? Sure. And if you're teaching your students that it *is* okay to put a semicolon in dialogue, it's all good. It's your class and they should write how you want them to write.

But there are apparently professionals and experts in the field who don't think it's okay, so look at it this way: no one is going to tell you you're wrong (let alone notice, even) if you use a period instead of a semicolon--after all, both components of the thought are supposed to be complete sentences, so a period works perfectly well, right?

But someone may tell you you're wrong for using the semicolon. Furthermore, there are plenty of websites out there that say don't do it, like this one, and that was just the top of the list.

It's cool to disagree. That's how we learn stuff! But--for the purposes of archiving at this site and good advice in general--the "no semicolon in dialogue" standard is the one we're following here.

And BTW--if I'd known it would get you to register, I would've said something objectionable about a punctuation mark a long time ago.

An off topic welcome to Alelou!

Returns to lurkdom in this thread.

If I may offer a totally unsolicted opinion, as another person who has some academic & professional experience in this area, I'd tend to agree semi-colons in dialogue should be used sparingly, if only because the kind of sentence which demands one is unlikely to sound very naturalistic. But, I'd also argue there are bound to be exceptions, and occasions where it does contribute to sense-making, which is, after all, what punctuation is supposed to be there for. And a full stop is a different kind of stop to a semi-colon; I don't think the two are necessarily always interchangable, either for expressing sense or for indicating the cadence of speech.

Ultimately, it is a style preference, and like all style preferences, you'll find some people who think it's an unbendable rule of the universe and other - equally qualified - people who think it's perfectly fine. But it is good advice to watch out for how you're using them, and I'm speaking here as a loud and proud fiend for the semi-colon. I've had plenty of editing sessions where I've had to go back and take out about a bajillion.

But then sometimes I sneak back in the middle of the night and put them back in, because damn, I love those little guys, and sometimes nothing else will do quite the same job.

Excuse me butting in, I hope I'm not out of line. This is just an area that interests me

You're right. Many times, it boils down to a style preference. It's not like the "laws" of grammar will hold up in court.

However, please remember a few things.

First, there are writers here at various stages in their development. Many of them don't know a lot of the basic rules to begin with, so it's my intent to stick mostly to a good idea/bad idea perspective and not clutter things up with too many exceptions. In a lot of the instances we're encountering as we're validating fics, the semicolon wasn't used properly to begin with, be it inside quotation marks or out. I'm totally into discussing the virtues of various language conventions and the exceptions that go along with them, but that may be more appropriate in a different thread than one in which I'm trying to help people out who really don't know what to do. Yes, it's also good for the more advanced writers to brush up as well, and those of you who know the rules also know how to effectively break them or when it's a matter of personal preference--but that's not my primary purpose here.

Second, you have no idea how many times the phrase "you can't say a semicolon" has come up in my life just in the last week alone, between the aforementioned professors (from two totally different departments in the school, mind you) to experienced zine editors who've been doing the fanfic thing in print since the early 1980s. People who don't know each other, people who will probably forget more about how language works than I'll ever know, saying the same thing, almost verbatim: "you can't say a semicolon."

Third, some of the points you and Alelou bring up are for other lessons for other times. Just because I didn't bring it up in that post doesn't mean that I forgot or that I'm wrong or that I'm failing to look at it from a certain angle. it just means that I can't tell people everything they ought to know about writing dialogue in one post. Nor should I try--it would be too long if I did and people would get frustrated and lose their patience with me. So I'm trying to keep it relatively simple.

Let's think about something else. If you're writing a line of dialogue that's so complex and convoluted that you feel compelled to use a semicolon for "organizational purposes", chances are you're going to get dinged by your beta reader, editor, teacher, admin, or whoever, on the grounds that "nobody really talks like that"--which, when you think about it, is another way of saying "you can't say a semicolon". And by "really talks like that,"we mean both in "real speech" (what real-life people actually say on a day to day basis) and "natural speech" (speech written either in literature or screenplays that isn't "real speech" but is meant to sound/read like it *is*). But again, that was supposed to be another lesson for a future time.

Okay, maybe you could justify a character's speech being so complex that you need a semicolon in a monologue, a la Shakespeare, or something like that. Sure. But the operative word in that scenario is monologue. As in one person, who can go on and on for a while and say whatever they want without interruption. it won't have the natural flow of conversation any way.

Dialogue, by its very nature, requires two or more participants. I can't recall a time in real speech or natural speech when I've encountered any person or character who said something that would make me say, "Oh, snap--that should really have a semicolon!" Like many things in life, just because you can do a thing, that doesn't make it a good idea, and it's my considered opinion (as well as that of several college professors, editors of print fanzines, and authors of fiction writing style guides, apparently) that putting semicolons in dialogue is one of them. While it's not necessarily wrong to do it, there's not a lot right about it, either.

And that's my opinion.

This also could be one of those things where we're witnessing the process of a change in language conventions--something that was considered acceptable before could simply be losing favor as these days the focus is on leaner, more streamlined expression in most situations.

I apologise; I didn't intend to imply that you were wrong or remiss. Of course you're entitled to establish a preferred style for your own archive. I just thought it was an interesting point, and worth bearing in mind this kind of thing can be mutable. It might also be a regional difference, since I know British and American punctuation conventions vary.

I appreciate this isn’t the place though – but if anyone wants to start a new thread and throw down with me about Oxford commas, I’m so up for it

Yup, Aquarius, you can definitely set up your own rules and follow them in your own archive as you wish, and certainly you have the right to edit out any irritating semi-colons you find submitted to the Delphic Expanse.

Personally, though, I'm not a fan of this kind of rule. It strikes me as serving little purpose, since (as you note) it won't come up very often if you write good dialogue anyway.

Maybe that's a sign that I teach at the community college level, where I'm happy if students can just string their thoughts together coherently and learn to use a semi-colon correctly in the first place. I know from experience that someone who has JUST learned how to use semi-colons always goes crazy over-using them. That's just a developmental phase, and something I look on as charming and youthful, like the way a child who has first gained confidence on a bicycle just rides and rides and rides.

And yes, professors disagree with each other about practically everything. Having worked in publishing and advertising as well as at the college level, I am sometimes amused at how incredibly judgmental and prescriptive some professors can get about the written word from their students, as if in the real world real writers don't need editors and copyeditors and proofreaders.

So, I'm a fan of this series, but I may chime in from time to time to offer a contrasting point of view (or to agree). If you mind that, just let me know and I'll be happy to shut the hell up.

And yes, hello Honeybee!

I don't mind that you disagree with me, folks.

But an ongoing debate doesn't help the purpose of the thread, which is to A) help out the people who are struggling, B) serve as a refresher for those who aren't struggling, and C) kind of inform in general about how we do things here.

I would prefer that debates get taken to the writers resource area. Some of this stuff is confusing enough for some people. They don't need to get caught up in that until they learn and become comfortable with one correct way to do things.

Alelou--your experience is yours, and my experience is mine. And in my experience, semicolons in dialogue are a no-no. That you have a different opinion on the subject doesn't invalidate my experience. It's all good if you disagree,but the fact of the matter is, while you may be right, I'm also not wrong.

My sincere apologies, Aquarius.

Feel free to delete my posts if you prefer to keep this series free of distraction.

Nah. I think I'll just split the topic so it has its own thread, so people who want to keep talking about it can. It is an interesting subject and worth talking about. I'll also link to the new thread in the dialogue 101 thread for people who want to follow the conversation and jump in. That way we can keep chatting, but people looking for help won't have to wade through multiple pages about semicolons to get the help they need.