the delphic expanse

Giving this "bounce ideas off other writers" thing a try here.

So I've had this persistent plot bunny for a really long time that won't go away and I wanted to bounce some of the ideas off the lot of you to see what you think. What I basically wanted to do is write a "temporal mystery" (for lack of a better expression) that undoes the most grievous mistake of that ... finale but also examines both the human condition and the Vulcan one. This particular story (if you know Latin, the title should be a big hint) would be set 10 years after the ENT events of TATV transpired, in 2171, and center around the sudden reappearance one Trip Tucker.

I'd open with a Starship replying to a distress signal and the Captain & the First Officer (pains would be taken to avoid identifying them at first) are a little disgusted to realize that the signal leads them to a sole stasis tube which quantum dating indicates is from the future. Eventually, we would reveal that the Captain is none other than Malcolm Reed and his XO is his close friend, Travis Mayweather. The two officers are in a close bro-mance (no slash connotations intended, but what people perceive is up to them, right?), and have served together for so long they know exactly what the other is going to do.

Anyway, they speak in front of the sealed tube – no one has determined how to open it – and a disembodied, computerized voice from within the tube announces that voice identification is confirmed for Malcolm Reed and Travis Mayweather. Part of the tube briefly retracts (envisioning a Stargate (the Movie, not the show) sort of retraction), revealing a familiar face: Trip!

We'd jump to Ambassador Archer who scrambles to get all sorts of strings pulled so he can join Reed & Mayweather after having learned about this mystery, and through his POV we'd learn some of what transpired following TATV. Hoshi is now a professor at Starfleet Academy and is married to that guy referenced in her IAMD bio. She's also Jon's closest friend since Trip is dead and T'Pol resigned from Starfleet shortly after they reached Earth; it would be made clear that she & Archer did not part amicably, and she has absolutely nothing to do with any member of her previous crew. So, Jon and Hoshi are en route to the Starbase that Phlox is on & Reed's ship ("Horizon"?) is en route as well. As to Phlox, well ... he's harder than before because the Romulans hit his homeworld with some sort of bio-weapon resulting in a quarantine. Denobulans are a dying race now...

Soval would be enlisted to get T'Pol there as well and we would learn then that T'Pol has accepted a teaching position on Vulcan. She's also patently miserable (although she conceals it), and we'd learn that the bond between her & Trip was dissolved after "Terra Prime" - this was her idea in the wake of Elizabeth's death, although Trip didn't contest the decision, and they spent the next six years in full on angst mode. She's not entirely to blame for the mess that was her non-relationship relationship with Trip, but she thinks she was. So, emotionally, she's a wreck, but career wise, she's the top in her field. Also? After the shock of Trip's stupid death wore off, she got really freaking mad at Archer whom she blamed for that whole mess. This lead to the severing of her ties to Starfleet. Anyway, Soval guilts her into going to the SB.

At the Starbase, we eventually get Trip out of the stasis tube and the assembled crew discover a major shock: he's Vulcan. I mean fully Vulcan. There are some minor irregularities (a result of the combination of some of his human traits with those of his Vulcan), but there's no doubt that he's fully Vulcan ... yet he's also Trip. More importantly, he has no recollection of the six years following Baby Elizabeth's death. T'Pol is eventually coerced into doing a meld - she's fully trained now - to determine if this is some sort of trick and she becomes utterly convinced that this is Trip.

Which leads to the conflict of the story. T'Pol sees this as an opportunity to undo the mistakes of her past, a second chance if you will, and becomes blinded by those goals to everything else. Phlox, once the optimist, no longer believes in this sort of miracle and suspects a trick. Jon is torn between both sides of the argument, and Trip is freaking the hell out over the Vulcan Super!Emotions! and the discovery that he's timelost. Daniels would show up to speak with Jon and Phlox and reveal that they have no idea who is behind Trip reappearing.

So, the crux of my dilemma is thus: I have no idea how to resolve this mess. I'm not a big fan of miraculous character rebirths without there being a really good, solid reason for it, so leaving Trip's rebirth a mystery just doesn't work for me. I've thought about doing something similar to how the original Duncan Idaho ghola worked in Dune Messiah, but that seems too derivative. I've also considered revealing that Phlox's half-human son (mother is Liz Cutler) is at least partially behind this. But again, none of this is really organic in terms of endings so...

Any suggestions? Please?

Do you have the reason why Trip is Vulcan or is that just a "plot bunny" dancing around in your head? I think that a resolution would be hard to come by if you don't know why or how Trip became Vulcan after his mysterious non-death.

And I'm assuming that you are not going to go with the Romulan spy thing that TGTMD establishes.

Misplaced wrote:Do you have the reason why Trip is Vulcan or is that just a "plot bunny" dancing around in your head?

Yeah, that's part of the "temporal mystery" that I'm trying to hash out. One of my ideas in that regard is that a faction of the TCW sent him back thus in order to achieve some sort of mission like maybe kill T'Pau at a critical point in history or something. So ultimately, yeah, its the central plot bunny that I'm trying to resolve...

And I'm assuming that you are not going to go with the Romulan spy thing that TGTMD establishes.

Totally disregarding TGTMD in every regard. In this AU, Trip actually did die in TATV (and I'd have the crew sort of comment to one another about how stupid that death was.)

THE Rigil Kent wrote:

Misplaced wrote:Do you have the reason why Trip is Vulcan or is that just a "plot bunny" dancing around in your head?

Yeah, that's part of the "temporal mystery" that I'm trying to hash out. One of my ideas in that regard is that a faction of the TCW sent him back thus in order to achieve some sort of mission like maybe kill T'Pau at a critical point in history or something. So ultimately, yeah, its the central plot bunny that I'm trying to resolve...

Is Trip supposed to remember being Trip or did something go wrong with the conversion process? And is he under some sort of hypnotic suggestion to carry out whatever mission he's been changed for (I can't imagine him willingly assassination T'Pau or whatever it will be) where he won't know until the moment arrives? And if that's the case can T'Pol's mind-meld uncover this? - it could take her a while to figure it out if she's so determined just to see that Trip's back.

Just some random questions that came to mind, hope this thread helps you figure stuff out

What if, following the Earth-Romulan War, a group of isolationists, led by T'Pau, gained control of the Vulcan High Command. Daniels visits Soval, warning him that an unexpected ripple in time has occurred which will have dire consequences for the Alpha Quadrant: Vulcan isolates herself, stunting any cultural or economic growth; the Federation struggles and ultimately fails, just like the Coalition; a new enemy -- possibly the Klingons -- joins with the Romulans and ultimately conquers and enslaves the worlds in the Alpha Quadrant.

Daniels tells Soval that he needs his help to restore the true timeline. Commander Tucker can become the necessary unifying force which brings Vulcan back into the fold. Soval states the obvious: Tucker is dead. Daniels then tells Soval that he can help him move through time, but only Soval can resolve this situation.

Time travel shorts out my brain. I don't know if this is feasible or not. It's just a suggestion.

Hrm.

If Trip's unaware of why he's reappeared, why he appears the way he does and has no memory of the years since Elizabeth's death, then it sounds like it would make the most sense to say he's being used by someone previously involved in the TCW.

How do feel about involving katras? Say, some Vulcan temporal agent grabbed Trip's katra while he was in the medical sickbay scanner thingamajigie - everyone else simply though he'd died in there? T'Pol would have known nothing, since she was no longer bonded to him at that point. You might be able to tie that into the reason why he appears as a Vulcan.

As for the reasons:
What if the time of Trip's death - and the founding of the Federation - was pivotal for future time lines? Minor changes then (and Trip's death was a major one) had far reaching effects and someone in the future sniffs out a rat. Maybe there's a cover up among the temporal agencies? One of the Rigellians that Trip killed in TATV was actually a temporal agent, who'd 'gone rouge' but the agencies won't fix it because they'd have to admit there was a failure somewhere?

Or maybe it's a single individual who's taken advantage of the pivotal nature of the time to affect something in their favor, like averting (or starting) a second Earth/Romulan War? Or Daniels was wrong when he told Archer the timeline was resetting itself and the farther along the future it went the more fractured it was. Disagreements over which was the correct timeline leads to someone taking matters into their own hands? What if it involved a descendant of one of the ENT crew? TnT's descendant?

What if the real solution to the temporal problem is to send Trip BACK to TATV and ensure he doesn't die? That T'Pol has to be the one who discovers that and has to give up Trip all over again in order to erase the last ten years.

Dunno if any of that will help trigger an idea, but there you go.

Rigil, I know you write long stories, in fact a whole series of long stories, and I don't (an attention deficit of some sort, probably), but I wonder if maybe you are trying to do too much in one story.

When I look at what you want to do with Trip, this is what I come up with:
1. He needs to be resurrected/reborn. No fake death. No successful "Code Blue." He's dead and gets reanimated like his Frankenstein monster.
2. He needs to time travel.
3. He comes back as a real Vulcan.
4. He probably gets the girl (T'Pol).
5. He's still the greatest engineer of his generation (just because Star Trek is the cult of the engineer).

At this point, I'm thinking that when Trip gets back to Earth he's going to be faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive and able to leap the Sears Tower without taking a running start just like his comic book hero Superman. That would be a great parody, but I'm pretty sure that isn't what you want; at least, I haven't seen that in your other work.

The item that put it over the top for me was Trip coming back as a Vulcan. Unless you have a really kick-ass reason to do that which you didn't put in the synopsis, then maybe dropping that plot point would simplify things a bit.

A question I have is whether you really want to do a time travel fic no matter what or whether you feel that you have to in order to achieve bringing Trip back to life since Phlox can't do it in the here and now. I personally find the Temporal Cold War to be confusing, complicated and not all that satisfying. Maybe that's because it comes off as such a cheat - if the story is popular, then it's obviously the right timeline. If it isn't, then just hit the magic reset button and try something else. I also don't find it particularly appealing that there are a bunch of people out there that have turned the whole universe into a puppet and are pulling the strings. That being said, what other time travelling options would you have? Could somebody be using the Guardian? Should Talla have been the one to die (or suffer a fate worse than death) since saving her caused the original problem in TATV? Would the Q have a reason to step in? I admit that that pushes it back toward parody for me, but every once in awhile they do provide a life lesson in return for their messing about. What about the Organians?

Who else could bring Trip back to life? Again, the Q comes to mind, and certainly the Organians because they've already done it once. I could see a scenario where the "younger" Organian sees the Earth-Romulan War coming and wants to prevent it in the way that his people would eventually prevent a Klingon-Federation war but can't get his "elders" behind the project. He does what he can - resurrects Trip again so that Earth has it's most talented engineer to design the ships that keep the Romulans at bay. "Younger" Organian gets a lesson in unintended consequences because his actions make his people's actions with the Klingons and Federation necessary.

Is TATV a Talosian experience? I could maybe see a scenario where Trip has been captured by them and presumed dead. It would be appealing to him to save Talla when he couldn't save his sister or his daughter, but at the same time, I don't see him wanting to be a neverending source of soap opera entertainment for them. With everything else that had gone wrong in his life, maybe he would be willing to see himself dead. At that point, the Talosians are willing to send him back.

I suspect this is all too derivative for what you hope to do, but it's the best I can do with what I've got. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to play with it.

Lady C wrote:Is Trip supposed to remember being Trip or did something go wrong with the conversion process?

As far as he's aware, he is Trip. His memories simply cease some time after "Terra Prime."

And is he under some sort of hypnotic suggestion to carry out whatever mission he's been changed for (I can't imagine him willingly assassination T'Pau or whatever it will be) where he won't know until the moment arrives?

Highly, highly unlikely. Like you, I can't see him agreeing to do anything like this (just like I had boatloads of problems with his decision to go undercover in TGTMD, but that's neither here nor there.

And if that's the case can T'Pol's mind-meld uncover this? - it could take her a while to figure it out if she's so determined just to see that Trip's back.

Possibly. But that plot idea (assassin) still a WIP and may be discarded entirely.

Dinah wrote:I don't know if this is feasible or not. It's just a suggestion.

And it's a really neat suggestion. I'm just hesitant about making Trip the fulcrum around how the entire fate of history rests. It would be hypocritical of me to do so with how often and how loudly I've complained about the canon show doing that with Archer.

EntAllat wrote:If Trip's unaware of why he's reappeared, why he appears the way he does and has no memory of the years since Elizabeth's death, then it sounds like it would make the most sense to say he's being used by someone previously involved in the TCW.

Correct.

How do feel about involving katras? Say, some Vulcan temporal agent grabbed Trip's katra while he was in the medical sickbay scanner thingamajigie - everyone else simply though he'd died in there? T'Pol would have known nothing, since she was no longer bonded to him at that point. You might be able to tie that into the reason why he appears as a Vulcan.

Agreed, but the problem there is that he would likely retain his memory of the time from TP to TGTMD if they snatched him post-stupid death, right?

Or maybe it's a single individual who's taken advantage of the pivotal nature of the time to affect something in their favor, like averting (or starting) a second Earth/Romulan War?

I'm actually leaning toward this being the excuse and it revolving around the Denobulans, specifically one of Phlox's descendants (half-human son by Liz Cutler?) who gets recruited into the TCW and determines through examining divergent timelines that the child of VulcanTrip & T'Pol becomes a super doctor who helps cure the plague threatening to eradicate the Denobulans. Thus, like in that TOS ep revolving around that Air Force pilot & his son, it isn't so much Trip that they're trying to resurrect, but their entire race.

Or Daniels was wrong when he told Archer the timeline was resetting itself and the farther along the future it went the more fractured it was. Disagreements over which was the correct timeline leads to someone taking matters into their own hands? What if it involved a descendant of one of the ENT crew? TnT's descendant?

A very interesting notion ... hmm ...

What if the real solution to the temporal problem is to send Trip BACK to TATV and ensure he doesn't die? That T'Pol has to be the one who discovers that and has to give up Trip all over again in order to erase the last ten years.

Extremely unlikely I'd go there, what with my abject loathing of all things reset button. But still, that's an interesting notion nonetheless...

Glory1863 wrote:At this point, I'm thinking that when Trip gets back to Earth he's going to be faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive and able to leap the Sears Tower without taking a running start just like his comic book hero Superman.

Given my own oft-stated dislike of them doing that with the Archer character (Super!Archer, where he outshoots the infantry major and tactical officer, or is a better pilot than the super!pilot of the show, or a better diplomat than the Vulcan whose been doing it for longer than Jonny boy's been alive, or where it takes one shot to kill the Vulcan XO despite her superior strength, stamina and fortitude but three or four to drop him), it would be pretty hypocritical of me to go in that direction. More likely, Trip is seriously messed up over this change in circumstance, and he (& T'Pol) would fall from history's view to protect him. After all, he's going from a slightly more emotional human to a hyper!emotional Vulcan, so I can't see him staying in the limelight.

As to doing too much in the story, I suspect that's just a difference of respective opinion. What I mostly wanted to examine is the question "what makes us human?" If Trip wakes up fully Vulcan but has all of his memories, does that make him any less human despite his current biology? How does one adjust to this sort of thing?

The item that put it over the top for me was Trip coming back as a Vulcan. Unless you have a really kick-ass reason to do that which you didn't put in the synopsis, then maybe dropping that plot point would simplify things a bit.

For me, that plot point is the central one in the story. Dropping it would remove the most compelling questions I'd like to address (see previous remark.) And it's mostly intended to be over-the-top, I think.

A question I have is whether you really want to do a time travel fic no matter what or whether you feel that you have to in order to achieve bringing Trip back to life since Phlox can't do it in the here and now.

I incorporated the idea of the TCW in this as part of the whodunnit. If Daniels shows up and says "we have absolutely no idea how or why he's back," everyone is gonna question what's going on. So that's part of the mystery.

I personally find the Temporal Cold War to be confusing, complicated and not all that satisfying.

I blame that on the fact that they didn't do a good job in figuring out the whos and whys, but overall, I agree with you. It isn't satisfying, even though it could have been an interesting storytelling device, IMO.

Could somebody be using the Guardian? Should Talla have been the one to die (or suffer a fate worse than death) since saving her caused the original problem in TATV?

A little too close to "Imazadi" for my tastes there...

And I don't want to comment on the Organians because there is a plot point revolving around them in my Endeavour stuff...

I suspect this is all too derivative for what you hope to do, but it's the best I can do with what I've got. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to play with it.

Oh, it's certainly chock full of neat ideas there. Gives me a lot to chew on and consider ...

Of course, now I've got to go to work. Dammit.

Thanks all...

THE Rigil Kent wrote:What I mostly wanted to examine is the question "what makes us human?" If Trip wakes up fully Vulcan but has all of his memories, does that make him any less human despite his current biology? How does one adjust to this sort of thing?

The item that put it over the top for me was Trip coming back as a Vulcan. Unless you have a really kick-ass reason to do that which you didn't put in the synopsis, then maybe dropping that plot point would simplify things a bit.

For me, that plot point is the central one in the story. Dropping it would remove the most compelling questions I'd like to address (see previous remark.) And it's mostly intended to be over-the-top, I think.

OK, she says as light bulb goes on over head. I obviously didn't connect the dots between Trip comes back as a Vulcan and examining the human and Vulcan condition. I guess I took that in the more usual sense of one human male and one Vulcan female. If that's where you're going with it, then that is one kick-ass reason, not something out of left field.

THE Rigil Kent wrote:

Could somebody be using the Guardian? Should Talla have been the one to die (or suffer a fate worse than death) since saving her caused the original problem in TATV?

A little too close to "Imazadi" for my tastes there...

OK, haven't read that one yet (yeah, I know it's old), but it's on the list. I can't afford to keep up with all the series and I learned a long time ago that some are better than others so I kind of pick and choose along with the other non-Star Trek stuff I read. You've piqued my interest, though. I may have to move it up a few notches.

THE Rigil Kent wrote:And I don't want to comment on the Organians because there is a plot point revolving around them in my Endeavour stuff...

Cool!

THE Rigil Kent wrote:

EntAllat wrote:How do feel about involving katras? Say, some Vulcan temporal agent grabbed Trip's katra while he was in the medical sickbay scanner thingamajigie - everyone else simply though he'd died in there? T'Pol would have known nothing, since she was no longer bonded to him at that point. You might be able to tie that into the reason why he appears as a Vulcan.

Agreed, but the problem there is that he would likely retain his memory of the time from TP to TGTMD if they snatched him post-stupid death, right?

Huh. Good question. There's only two ways (that I can remember) of containing a katra - in someone else's mind for a short while (ala Spock and McCoy) or in a katric ark. What would the katra remember of either experience?

THE Rigil Kent wrote:More likely, Trip is seriously messed up over this change in circumstance, and he (& T'Pol) would fall from history's view to protect him. After all, he's going from a slightly more emotional human to a hyper!emotional Vulcan, so I can't see him staying in the limelight.

As to doing too much in the story, I suspect that's just a difference of respective opinion. What I mostly wanted to examine is the question "what makes us human?" If Trip wakes up fully Vulcan but has all of his memories, does that make him any less human despite his current biology? How does one adjust to this sort of thing?

I like this a LOT.

We remember so much more than just events. There's muscle memory too. For example, physical movement is also affected by what you've trained yourself to be able to do (as dancers, athletes and actors can attest to) and what your body remembers it can do - which is why a lot of teenagers that shoot upwards seemingly overnight are suddenly so uncomfortable in their own bodies, bumping into door frames and a little clumsy with longer arms and legs than they were used to for so many years. There are of course the veterans of wars or victims of accidents that can remember sensations from limbs that no longer exist.

So yeah, I could see Trip being really discombobulated adjusting to Vulcan Super Emotions, but also to the fact that his heart is on the other side of his body from where every physical memory he has says it should be and he's got a second eyelid and his hearing is turned up ... He'd probably rake a comb painfully over those ears the first couple of times.

And having amnesia regarding a long period of his life ontop of that? I'd be freaked.

So what makes us Human? Or bodies? Our emotions? Our memories?

I'm looking forward to what you come up with! Good luck.