the delphic expanse

While Malcolm and Trip's friendship got more solid over the years, Archer and Tucker's friendship - which appeared very close in the first season - slowly changed.

I think as Aquarius pointed out in the Malcolm and Trip friendship thread, it's hard to be friends with your boss. Cogenitor proved that. Also, as Trip really matured into a good - I would say great leader - he was no longer the devoted protege of Archer. He likely had the stuff to be as good - some might say better - a captain than Archer. So, this was bound to fundamentally change the friendship.

In Dessert Crossing, the two men are clearly devoted to one another - but that doesn't stop Archer from, say, dressing down Trip in Dead Stop or even become enraged at him in Cogenitor.

My feeling about Cogenitor - is that Archer saw a little too much of himself in Trip's actions, since Archer had been known to interfere in situations. Consequently, his strongly expressed feelings.

I think that it's unfortunate that the writers let this relationship slip after Cogenitor. They had a real opportunity to explore new tension between Archer and Tucker, with real character growth. Instead, they literally dropped it. We didn't see anything further until Similitude.

Shame, really. I'm sure Archer would have been a little more attentive toward Trip's response to the loss of his sister than what was shown.

You're right. There's the one scene in The Expanse when the two men are drinking and talking about going after The Xindi - egging each other on - but there's not a whole lot of closeness there, just two guys hell bent on revenge/destruction.

In Similitude, it seems that Archer has some affection for Trip but his primary motive in saving Trip is the mission.

Well, I don't know about Archer's primary objective being saving the mission, in Similitude. I think in that episode he is heart-broken about losing Trip the friend too. It's just that he's in that rigid cast, and can't show too much. I love Similitude for that - I think as Sim grows Archer briefly regains something of his old self and of his old relationship with Trip. And in the end I think he is desperate to get Trip - his friend Trip - back.

First let me say that I tend to agree with the comments here about Trip and Jon's relationship. But I wonder if there's even more going on...

I think Jon rightfully is upset/angry with Trip's actions in Cogenitor. But part of Jon's reasoning might be that his friendship with Trip has made him lax in his professional relationship with him (that is, Jon maybe gave Trip more latitude when he messed things up than he might have with other crew members).

In the Expanse, it seemed to be that Jon shut himself away from the crew. The mission took precedence over friendships. Yet he understands Trip's value to the mission. Eh. That might be too simplistic. At the same time, Trip was also shutting everyone else out as he tried to cope with his grief over his sister's death. There was no way they were going to connect on an emotional level/friendship in that situation.

After all that is resolved, Trip has grown in maturity and leadership skills. I think since their friendship had been strained, Jon now might be starting to view Trip more as a colleague again, a person whose abilities and professionalism might some day match his own, at least as far as leadership skills. They might even be good friends again if Trip became a captain and was no longer under Jon's direct command.

I'm wracking my brain right now, but I don't recall any good friendship scenes between the two in the last year of the series.

Volley, I really like your reading of Similitude and I wish I saw it as clearly as you do. I do agree there might be a layer of friendship subtext there, I think Archer's pushing that down pretty deep because of the extremity and ethical ambiguity of what he's doing.

I do think he does develop affection for Sim and that might be rooted in his friendship for Trip. Phlox is the father figure, so Archer doesn't really play that role. But he's also aware that he's going to watch Sim die, and then later faces ordering Sim's death. I suppose it is very complex - with is friendship with Trip, responsibility he feels for creating Sim and his own moral digression all coloring how he sees the situation. There might be a hint of that friendship in the scene in the shuttlebay where Sim says he'll submit to the fatal procedure, I'll have to rewatch.

Like you, Kathy Rose, I think Archer really does turn cold in the Expanse - and doesn't like it. It's quite sad when you look at the gregarious side of him you see in Season 1. Meanwhile, Trip grows a person through his own grief.

I always thought that TnT turned to each other in the Expanse, because they both lost the person they were closest to: Archer. I think trip was buddies with Malcolm, but he shut off Malcolm when he tried to talk about Elizabeth. The neuropressure gave Trip an outlet for his emotions, as much as it helped him physically.

Sorry, I’m not as eloquent as others when trying to describe my opinion, by my take on the Archer/Trip friendship is, yes, it was shattered in Cogenitor, and on the surface it never seemed to be addressed or mended. However, in Damage, Archer went to Trip to offload his guilt. So, for me, this illustrates that there is still hope for them in rebuilding their friendship.

However, in season 4 you've got Deadalus where Trip and Archer have that huge blowout, and the end of The Aenar, where Trip asks for a transfer.

In the Aenar we can all see how Trip struggles, but then, if you look at Archer’s eyes, you can see the hurt, betrayal and loss there.

I'm actually building a story around these incidences... I can't get enough of Trip/Archer angst...

In the Aenar we can all see how Trip struggles, but then, if you look at Archer’s eyes, you can see the hurt, betrayal and loss there.

Absolutely, these two really do care about each other - that never seems to stop. But everything they go through does change both of them as people, as well as their friendship. Trip grows so much in The Vulcan arc as well, really having the stuff of a Captain (he becomes Captain during the Romulan War in one of my stories) - and the fact that their friendship never fully recovers is a very fertile ground for stories.

I wrote something similar on another board (I think? My mind is going.) as Mistress Euclid and Kathy Rose regarding Cogenitor.

I love the Archer/Trip friendship because it's really complex, at least IHMO.

If you're looking at the two as a good friends, my take on this particular friendship when I'm writing is that it had the character of an older/younger brother and mentor/mentee relationship, as opposed to Trip and Malcolm's more college-buddies-like friendship. (Or opposed to Archer's friend-and-competitor type friendships with A.G. Robinson and Shran.)

Because of that, I agree with this wholeheartedly:

Mistress Euclid wrote:Archer saw a little too much of himself in Trip's actions, since Archer had been known to interfere in situations. Consequently, his strongly expressed feelings.

I saw that scene as sort of like when an older brother, who's done some risky behavior (smoking/drugs, something illegal etc. whatever), finds out that his younger sibling who idolizes him has just done something similar thus putting the youth's future at risk. The older sibling comes down far harder on the younger sibling than he would on anyone else out of guilt and an identification with the situation.

It usually has the same effect as it seemed to have with Archer and Trip. There's a bit of a cooling between the two, as the hero worship fades: the younger one begins to view the older a little more realistically and struggles to work out their own way of doing things while the other doesn't want to be idolized anymore and begins to struggle to deal with his own failures. In the best of circumstances this'll pass and the two will reconcile and become close again.

I think the third season was a sort of take on Archer and Trip's personal struggles while the fourth season hinted at the reconciliation and that they'd both grown. If the series had gone on, I could see Archer eventually growing into a wiser diplomat and Federation statesman while mentoring Trip out of engineering and into a leader as a Starfleet Captain and the two remaining friends the rest of their lives.

I also thought Cogenitor was a really nice example of both men's particular virtues catching up with them in a negative way. For Trip, it was his friendliness desire (and ability) to reach out and help those who are a little different. For Archer, it was his positive and optimistic view of exploration and meeting new species. For Trip, his help turned out to have tragic consequences in a situation that was far more complex than it might have seemed on the surface. For Archer, he was maybe shake to realize that he'd been so eager to expereince a positive First Contact that hadn't seen the similarities of this complex social situation to ones in which he'd interfered.

Apologies for the rambling sentences. I think I've had too much caffeine this morning.