the delphic expanse

General ENT femslash discussion

Girls gone wild.

Re: General ENT femslash discussion

Postby entkayjay » Wed Aug 24, 2011 3:21 pm

Aquarius wrote:Granted, this is hardly hard, scientific evidence, but when I've seen the question similarly broached elsewhere, the answers were pretty much the same. I think it's universal regardless of what fandom it is.


You are so right. And it's part of the circle of fandom that the topic comes up every few years.

For reference (for those who are into meta discussion -- warning, you can get lost for hours in all this, and there is some wank):

Femslash Discussion Bookmarks from Metafandom on Delicious

Fic Commenting Discussion Bookmarks from Metafandom on Delicious

All Metafandom Discussion Tags on Delicious

Aquarius wrote:Honestly? -- And nobody throw anything at me here, I'm making a confession and explaining where I'm coming from and counting on folks to not get freaked out and judgmental


This is a discussion I would absolutely love to have, in a safe environment with like-minded people who respect each other, with the expectation of open minds and that it would not descend into some kind of wank. I too would like to explain where I'm coming from and count on folks to not get freaked out and judgmental, so I'm pretty sure most of us here are on the same page. We've obviously all seen or come from various communities which made these subjects... challenging, at best? I think we could have that discussion here at DE but that would be up to you guys, the mods. I do think it may detract from the focus of this thread, since it's not an easy topic. Consider this a request to have that conversation around here at some point? (Or here, if you wanted to continue.) :) You make some very good points, Aquarius, with completely understandable reactions, and I can totally relate. They make a terrific starting point, imho.

That said, I'm also including some of those meta debates I've referenced upthread. It's really interesting reading, and I've certainly learned a lot over the years from other people's perspectives, as I've grown as a writer, reader and a viewer.

Slash Discussion Bookmarks from Metafandom on Delicious

No Heterosexual Explanation (or, "finding your slash goggles for beginners," imho)

And the other side of that particular coin, for folks who can't find their slash goggles. Not that there's anything wrong with that. ;) :lol: <====JOKING, just in case...

Aquarius wrote:I don't know...it just seems to me that as a whole, Enterprise slash is more...what's the word I want...accessible?...to a broader range of readers. And by accessibility I don't mean how easily you find it online or the volume of stories being written or whatnot. I mean it in the sense that we use in describing the content of a TV show in terms of will "most people" get it or will only a small segment of people relate to it.


As a small part of that discussion, Enterprise, as a Trek series, came along at just the right moment in time, too, compared to other series. IMHO, there was a tipping point somewhere after the turn of the century, where online and societal views and acceptance of what used to be a whispered, er, "kink" isn't the right word -- interest? choice? lifestyle? -- have made their way into mainstream. Slash is one, LGBTQ is another, even "porn" isn't given a second glance in many circles anymore. So today, talking about fanfiction in general is more understood, or simply tolerated. Since slash is a subgenre of fandom/fanfiction, that means it has a contextually broader appeal as well. There was slash with other series, but now late night talk show hosts and even the actors themselves joke about it. That didn't happen before.

Aquarius wrote:That said, in terms of Enterprise, maybe the femslash is suffering first and foremost from an accessibility issue? In the RU, there is very little subtext upon which to draw from in terms of T'Pol/Hoshi, so you're already in the realm of "yeah, I know, but I like it this way." Maybe the tacit confession that comes with leaving a comment on such a story isn't so much "OMG what if they think I'm a lesbian?" or "OMG, what if they think I'm a dude who reads chick lit?", but more of one like "yeah, it's a crack!ship, but I like it"?


Crack!ships are in the eye of the beholder, since slashers and non-canon shippers are a wide and varied lot. Some people ship anything that moves (a probable subset to Rule 34), just because. Some characters become the "little black dress" of a show's fanfiction (Malcolm seems to fit that role in Enterprise fandom, thanks to DK). Some people rely on subtext, and some don't. Some just like teh pretty. As to how leaving a comment to a fic may or may not be interpreted? I don't really feel that holds a lot of sway on whether or not someone comments, except maybe in those very restrictive communities you referenced above. All this is subjective, though, and YMMV. ;)

TL;DR: If you're actively reading slash enough to want to comment, what other slash readers will think about your predilections are probably not a concern, imho. Could be wrong, though. I'm certainly not the final arbiter of Fandom. :)
entkayjay
Commander
 
Posts: 616
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2010 8:31 am

Re: General ENT femslash discussion

Postby EntAllat » Wed Aug 24, 2011 3:37 pm

Aquarius wrote:Whether the readers are men or women, it's a shame that they may be silent because the possibility for curiosity being punished exists. :(

That seems likely to me. Fear, shyness, and possibly simply the fact that the larger percentage of people who read stuff don't review?

Maybe too, the people who would review are so busy writing that they forget to? I know that I am so, so, so very bad about this. I owe nearly every person whose stories I've read a big apology for not leaving a (or simply more) review(s). Maybe that's a problem for other writers as well?

BTW, I love this:
entkayjay wrote:Big Name Fans tend to gather followers and comments like flies, as do the people recc'd by those BNFs. Sometimes it's a matter of the time involved to read, other times it's just the nature of the reader. Most people don't use any LJ toys to get read counts on their fics there. No comments, and you have no idea who has read your story. So the debate centers around fandom's "gift economy" and how commenting supports the Muses and gets you more stories -- but not used as a "threat" as tends to happen with newer and far younger writers in places like ff.net (R&R plz or I won't rite moar!). It's more the carrot approach, rather than the stick.

Ah! I love you for using the term "gift economy". :) (Oops. Is my anthropologist showing?) But this brought to mind something else - I think (and this is just me guessing, I've got no data to back this up) that newer fanfic writers receive fewer reviews. As they write more, and get more involved in the community and people generally like their work, they start to get more reviews. It's as much about reviews wanting to connect, and stay connected, to the author as it is about encouraging the work itself. It's like we do as fans with the actors we're so fond of. We want to stay connected in some way.

Maybe that has some impact on the derth of reviews for femslash in ENT at least? Who's writing the femslash? If it's just Mistress Euclid, then this idea probably doesn't hold water since she's decently well known in the DE community.

Aquarius wrote:That said, in terms of Enterprise, maybe the femslash is suffering first and foremost from an accessibility issue? In the RU, there is very little subtext upon which to draw from in terms of T'Pol/Hoshi, so you're already in the realm of "yeah, I know, but I like it this way." Maybe the tacit confession that comes with leaving a comment on such a story isn't so much "OMG what if they think I'm a lesbian?" or "OMG, what if they think I'm a dude who reads chick lit?", but more of one like "yeah, it's a crack!ship, but I like it"?

Possibly. And here's another idea. Maybe it's because a lot of the fanfic writers aren't looking at all the female possibilities in ENT because the guys are more front and center to a mostly-female group of writers. Liz Cutler has been mentioned, but there's also a very slashable, Corporal Cole. She's fared well in het fiction at least and might be an interesting contrast to Hoshi. And Raijin? Why not a reappearance of her?
User avatar
EntAllat
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3720
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2011 3:02 pm
Location: Texas

Re: General ENT femslash discussion

Postby Aquarius » Wed Aug 24, 2011 4:07 pm

This is a discussion I would absolutely love to have, in a safe environment with like-minded people who respect each other, with the expectation of open minds and that it would not descend into some kind of wank. I too would like to explain where I'm coming from and count on folks to not get freaked out and judgmental, so I'm pretty sure most of us here are on the same page. We've obviously all seen or come from various communities which made these subjects... challenging, at best? I think we could have that discussion here at DE but that would be up to you guys, the mods. I do think it may detract from the focus of this thread, since it's not an easy topic. Consider this a request to have that conversation around here at some point? (Or here, if you wanted to continue.) :) You make some very good points, Aquarius, with completely understandable reactions, and I can totally relate. They make a terrific starting point, imho.


Thanks, kayjay.

I know I would like to have a meaningful dialogue about this as well. And not just in the realm of het/slash, but maybe the other "shipper war" stuff, too, where people can talk about stuff without feeling like anyone is going to judge them or proselytize to them. I confess that as an admin the idea of opening such a thread makes me a little nervous, but having said that, if there was ever a group of people capable of having a mature discussion, it's the people who populate the Expanse. So, let me talk to Honeybee about that tonight and see what she thinks. I think it needs its own thread so the femslash specific discussion can continue here, and it'll need some established/reiterated ground rules so everyone participating can be assured that it won't become one of those forum grenades.

But I agree that understanding comes from meaningful dialogue and not from ignoring the elephant in the room. In relation to the review end of the topic, I was a little dismayed when someone who regularly reviewed my work at my old haunt said he wouldn't come here because he kept "tripping over" the slash here. Is he kidding me right now? Generally you don't trip if you look where you're going, am I right? Rather, I took it to mean he was taking it as an opportunity to express his anti-slash bias.

There is a lot of good stuff in the last couple of posts, and I'll come back and discuss the femslash stuff shortly. I just wanted to address the topic of having the broader discussion first. One thing, however, did jump out at me so if nobody minds, I'd like to talk about it now:

Crack!ships are in the eye of the beholder, since slashers and non-canon shippers are a wide and varied lot.


I disagree that it's "eye of the beholder," since as far as I know "crack!ship" is generally accepted to mean a 'ship for which there's little to no textual support for? And het 'shippers are not exempt from your remarks that followed, about the varied results you'll get. There is either textual or subtextual support for what you're 'shipping, or there isn't, You can only debate the possible interpretations of what's actually there.

Ok, somewhere in there I had a femslash point to make about that, but in my cold tablet-induced fog I lost it...so my statement appears to be more appropriate for the broader discussion. :oops: If I remember where I was originally going in terms of the femslashy stuff, I'll come back and say so.

Until then, please feel free to alternately mock and pity the girl on pills. :oops:
Avatar by Misplaced.
User avatar
Aquarius
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5516
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2010 2:30 pm

Re: General ENT femslash discussion

Postby Honeybee » Wed Aug 24, 2011 5:43 pm

I'm going to chime in with agreement with Entallat. Even though I have no problem praising femslash as a primarily het writer and don't think it reflects on my sexuality one way or another - I can believe that might be an issue, not just in leaving a review but even reading it all together. And guys looking for a cheap thrill aren't really going to find it on this site - we're not that great at PWP here, despite our smut workshop, our stable of writers - het or slash - tend to naturally weave in pesky plot elements. I also have the added bonus of "hostess" status on this site, so I want to encourage all kinds of fics, het or slash or other and feel very free to leave reviews on everything and anything.

But, personally, a great writer can make me find a het, slash or femslash scene sexy - regardless of what I will or won't do in my own life. I think we've discussed that in the smut workshop. I don''t find porn outside my preferences sexy, but a well-written scene with people who are really into each other - that will work for me regardless.

I decided to write a femslash romance into one of my stories (Dusk) as a side plot because like a lot of fans, the 100% hetero world of Trek doesn't reflect the reality of my life. Although, I think there are minor characters that "ping" as gay - we all know we've never even had a major reoccurring gay character. I was supportive of Martin & Mangels folding a gay character into the relaunch books, although some fans disagreed.

Later on, I went whole hog and wrote some slash and I found it to be really creatively interesting.

And let me add, I don't think anyone should have to leave a review or even read something that they aren't cool or comfy with. It's just that I'm piping up to say - it's cool if you want to!

Anyway, I'm all for evolving this discussion into something wider - provided that everyone respects that the whole philosophy of this site is that everyone is free to celebrate their own ship(s) and shouldn't take other people doing the same as a threat! It's all good. If you don't like it, don't read it.
User avatar
Honeybee
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5634
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2010 2:37 pm

Re: General ENT femslash discussion

Postby Aquarius » Wed Aug 24, 2011 6:48 pm

For those who are interested, we've opened The Neutral Zone, an area where we can have the aforementioned broader dialogue. The discussion has been opened, and you can find it here.

Please continue to use this thread for femslash-specific discussion.
Avatar by Misplaced.
User avatar
Aquarius
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5516
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2010 2:30 pm

Re: General ENT femslash discussion

Postby Section69 » Thu Aug 25, 2011 9:53 pm

I'll add one more idea here, before I scamper off to scribble on my fic. One of the reasons why femslash may be missing in ENT is the personal appeal of the two most front and center women, Hoshi and T'Pol, and their similarities and differences.

Honestly, I didn't really like Hoshi at first. It's only some of the better A/S and R/S fanfic writers out there that have brought me around to really liking that character now. But even now, I don't find myself particularly attracted to her. She's pretty, but not my "type". Neither is T'Pol really, though less so. I actually find my type exists far more outside of the Star Trek universe.

Also, in femslash, I tend to like there to be a little more of a dichotomy between the two. Hoshi and T'Pol are just too similar in a lot of ways. I find that ying/yang is more readily available in other fandoms: Xena and Gabrielle were an awesome pair. Willow and Tara were just beautiful (*sniff*), etc. A good writer could probably play up T'Pol's confident and stoic Vulcan nature and Hoshi's insecurities and fear from the first couple of seasons and then turn it around through the third and fourth as they seem to trade places. But the thing is, it's more work to pull that out of there with so little existing subtext.

Lastly, I think the fact that Trek in general has had a long, winding path of creating strong female characters that works against it for femslash. There's just other kinds of fandom - especially the crime dramas - where the female characters really appeal as far as slash goes. And the subtext is far more prevalent to draw from.
User avatar
Section69
Lieutenant JG
 
Posts: 73
Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2010 11:11 am

Re: General ENT femslash discussion

Postby Aquarius » Sun Sep 11, 2011 11:26 pm

Here's something I was thinking about in the last couple of days, but didn't have a chance to put it out here until now.

While all the F/F possibilities in Enterprise seem to have a crack!ship element to them, especially in the RU, there is a premise for most combinations of the women that I think would be plausible: the unrequited girl crush. Woman A desires Woman B, and Woman B is totally oblivious. You also wouldn't need much in the way of subtext from the show, because if these women are professionals, it's the kind of thing they'd keep to themselves.

Still, you can get as slashy/romantic/angsty/smutty as you want, because you're dealing with a portrayal of one character's desires and not an actual relationship.

Just a thought.
Avatar by Misplaced.
User avatar
Aquarius
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5516
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2010 2:30 pm

Re: General ENT femslash discussion

Postby Brandyjane » Mon Sep 12, 2011 6:57 pm

That's a good point, Aquarius. I can see a plausible argument for Cutler to have an unrequited crush on T'Pol. I think that she was probably just very curious about alien cultures, but you could make the argument that Cutler had a little bit of a girl-crush on T'Pol in "Strange New World." I guess the question there would be, does she still have it at the end of the episode after T'Pol blows her off several times without even realizing it.
Brandyjane
Lt. Commander
 
Posts: 359
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2010 7:18 am

Re: General ENT femslash discussion

Postby Mistress Euclid » Fri Sep 30, 2011 12:39 pm

Brandyjane wrote:That's a good point, Aquarius. I can see a plausible argument for Cutler to have an unrequited crush on T'Pol. I think that she was probably just very curious about alien cultures, but you could make the argument that Cutler had a little bit of a girl-crush on T'Pol in "Strange New World." I guess the question there would be, does she still have it at the end of the episode after T'Pol blows her off several times without even realizing it.


I agree that it was most likely curiosity about new experiences in terms of food and culture. However, I can also see it as a good place to start should one choose to pursue a femslash story without "violating" anything textually. In fact, I'm surprised we don't see more stories of this nature than we do, given that it takes the "implausibility" factor right out of the equation.

Another dimension to this type of story: unattainability sometimes makes the object of desire *more* desirable. So I think that, in answer to the question of Liz still feeling it after T'Pol has blown her off, could easily lie in the opposite direction, that she may even feel it more.
I have an AT&T avatar and you don't.
(Thanks to Misplaced!)
User avatar
Mistress Euclid
Moderator
 
Posts: 564
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2010 5:09 pm

Previous

Return to T'Pol and Hoshi, and Other Femslash (Slash)

  • Who is online

    Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest